Western Railroad Discussion > Ruling makes it easier to de-certify rail and airline unions

The Wall Street Journal has an article in yesterday's paper about Eugene Scalia, the Secretary of Labor, and his success as a private lawyer in decertifying unions.  In recent years it has become a favored tool of management in getting rid of union agreements.

The National Mediation Board issued a ruling in 2019 which simplifies the process for decertification, and prevents a vote to restore a union for two years.  The change was preceded by a National Labor Relations Board determination in 2018 that airline ramp workers, baggage handlers, plane cleaners, etc are covered employees under the Railway Labor Act. Which brought more contractors under the scope of the RLA.

The change in de-cert rules was opposed by the AFL-CIO, and by transportation unions. The change is currently blocked by the courts as a result of a suit filed by transportation workers.

Bloomberg Law summary of the changes:  https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/airline-railroad-union-decertification-eased-under-final-rule

The rail unions are a joke they are nothing like they use to be all they want is your money so the can survive!

Shots fired.

Not so much as shots fired but its the reality of todays unions and yes I pay railroad union dues each month!

dpc37 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The rail unions are a joke they are nothing like
> they use to be all they want is your money so the
> can survive!


If that's true then it's because the culture of their respective memberships isn't what it used to be either. The unions were once made up of a lot more members who realized that union membership is not a spectator sport and were willing to shed a drop of blood or two to help their organizations help them. Now in the age of entitlement, not so much.

As for Eugene Scallia, he is a prime example of what you get when the fox is appointed to guard the henhouse.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/20 09:38 by Chico43.

I remember back in the late 70's when there was a strike.
I saw a posting by the railroad that if we wanted to work thru the strike there would be;
$8 an hour
No Home rule
No Seniority
And many other long negotiated agreements were out the window.
I was sooooo glad we signed the contract and got back to work.

Bob Krieger
Cheyenne, WY

Chico43 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If that's true then it's because the culture of their respective memberships isn't what it used to
> be either. The unions were once made up of a lot more members who realized that union membership is
> not a spectator sport and were willing to shed a drop of blood or two to help their organizations
> help them. Now in the age of entitlement, not so much.
>
> As for Eugene Scallia, he is a prime example of what you get when the fox is appointed to guard
> the henhouse.

Amen to all of that!!! Well put!!!

Although retired I still go to the union meetings as a "guest". Every meeting it's the same story, only 2 or 3 members other than the local officers show up and even the local chairman doesn't always come (he will participate via speaker phone). I have been to meetings where there have been more "guests" than members. It sickens me to see how the members today don't come to meetings to at least be involved. It pisses me off even more to see how the members do nothing to support and/or enforce the agreement and operating rules by doing unsafe things without a fight. Of course they definitely complain about paying dues.

I sit there and listen to the complaints of how the union doesn't do anything for the members but then I listen to those very members not want to do anything to support the union. Right now there is a safety issue the members expect the local chairman to handle even though the members themselves ignore the issue and keep doing what they're doing. How can the local chairman fight for something the members themselves want to ignore and do nothing about? Nobody sticks together for anything; they only care about themselves. I won't get into the general committee and how they seem to ignore a lot of what's going on.

What a lot of people, especially union members, don't realize is that most of management/labor relations are covered by the Railway Labor Act and that lays out how disputes are handled. Basically as much as people think the unions are weak by not going on strike, the RLA prohibits strikes unless there is a "major dispute" or until many steps have been taken to settle an agreement issue (new contract). Additionally the courts have rules there is no such thing as a "major dispute" except under very, very narrow conditions. In the railroad industry the unions are fighting management with one hand tied behind their backs. The threat of a major dispute is what keeps the railroads in check though. 

For those who hate the unions, just take a moment to think about what your job would be without a union and agreement? If you think things are even remotely bad now, try it without a union, especially on one of the major (large) railroads. You wouldn't want to even think about that.



 

Chico43 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dpc37 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The rail unions are a joke they are nothing
> like
> > they use to be all they want is your money so
> the
> > can survive!
>
>
> If that's true then it's because the culture of
> their respective memberships isn't what it used to
> be either. The unions were once made up of a lot
> more members who realized that union membership is
> not a spectator sport and were willing to shed a
> drop of blood or two to help their organizations
> help them. Now in the age of entitlement, not so
> much.
>
> As for Eugene Scallia, he is a prime example of
> what you get when the fox is appointed to guard
> the henhouse.
Hear, hear, Brother! Hear, Hear!

I don't trust the Unions or the Company are agreement changed 5 years ago for higher wages but its been nothing
but bad news I work in a small terminal so every job counts in the last five years we have lost 4 jobs
One when we went to 12 hour shifts in the yard.
One when they changed the yard switching one job doing two jobs work.
Two jobs when the company negotiated away are transfer job.
So before this new contract we had 8 jobs now we have 4 jobs that work 12 hour shifts and the company expects you 
out the door in 10 minutes with a 20 minutes lunch with no other breaks.
So let me tell you what the union has done above local level nothing I support the local but its above that level that I
have no use for.
I'm a member of the BLET but I'm a trainmen not a engineer the UTU is not on our property.
 

skinem Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chico43 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > dpc37 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > The rail unions are a joke they are nothing
> > like
> > > they use to be all they want is your money so
> > the
> > > can survive!
> >
> >
> > If that's true then it's because the culture of
> > their respective memberships isn't what it used
> to
> > be either. The unions were once made up of a
> lot
> > more members who realized that union membership
> is
> > not a spectator sport and were willing to shed
> a
> > drop of blood or two to help their
> organizations
> > help them. Now in the age of entitlement, not
> so
> > much.
> >
> > As for Eugene Scallia, he is a prime example of
> > what you get when the fox is appointed to guard
> > the henhouse.
> Hear, hear, Brother! Hear, Hear!

100% support my brothers and sisters!!!!

Posted from iPhone

The unions may not be perfect, but the simple fact remains if we didn't have them we would all be a bunch of Walmart greeters. If you can afford to live on $12/hour and about 30 hours per week maybe with medical that costs more than you make, then I guess that's fine for you. Personally I aspire for more than that.

I remember back in the early 70's when in the UTU as a trainman/switchman and then promoted to Engine Service in 1979, it was the philosopy of the older heads that "you take care of the young man, you take care of all"in the craft. Saw this starting to go away on SBD/CSXT in the 80's with the crew consist and pegleg agreements the UTU agreed to with new hires becoming lower paid afterwards.
We called the new hires when we finally got new hires (took that long to need new hires after the older heads retired)  in the late 90's,(Ape's) all purpose employees since they were required to do more work for less money and if they did not go into Engine Service they could be sent home. May have changed by now
Now after all these concessions that helped restore railroads bottom line, now the carriers want one man and maybe crewless trains! So much for sharing the wealth with the folks out in the field  who made sacrifices back in the day. That has been a generation of railroaders ago.

Steve Panzik
Chiloquin, Or
 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/20 00:11 by ln844south.

dpc37 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't trust the Unions or the Company are
> agreement changed 5 years ago for higher
> wages but its been nothing
> but bad news I work in a small terminal so every
> job counts in the last five years we have lost 4
> jobs
> One when we went to 12 hour shifts in the yard.
> One when they changed the yard switching one job
> doing two jobs work.
> Two jobs when the company negotiated away are
> transfer job.
> So before this new contract we had 8 jobs now we
> have 4 jobs that work 12 hour shifts and the
> company expects you 
> out the door in 10 minutes with a 20 minutes lunch
> with no other breaks.
> So let me tell you what the union has done above
> local level nothing I support the local but its
> above that level that I
> have no use for.
> I'm a member of the BLET but I'm a trainmen not a
> engineer the UTU is not on our property.
>  


Nothing new to see here. This scenerio has repeated itself hundreds of times over the years on many different properties and the company doesn't need to negotiate a change in the agreement to make it happen. All they need is a workforce that has demonstrated its ability and willingness to do whatever it takes to do the same amount of work with four jobs that used to require eight. And then, over time, when half of the jobs have been abolished, the path of least resistance is to lay the blame for letting it happen on the doorsteps of the union officers instead of where it rightfully belongs.

Chico43 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dpc37 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I don't trust the Unions or the Company are
> > agreement changed 5 years ago for higher
> > wages but its been nothing
> > but bad news I work in a small terminal so
> every
> > job counts in the last five years we have lost
> 4
> > jobs
> > One when we went to 12 hour shifts in the yard.
> > One when they changed the yard switching one
> job
> > doing two jobs work.
> > Two jobs when the company negotiated away are
> > transfer job.
> > So before this new contract we had 8 jobs now
> we
> > have 4 jobs that work 12 hour shifts and the
> > company expects you 
> > out the door in 10 minutes with a 20 minutes
> lunch
> > with no other breaks.
> > So let me tell you what the union has done
> above
> > local level nothing I support the local but its
> > above that level that I
> > have no use for.
> > I'm a member of the BLET but I'm a trainmen not
> a
> > engineer the UTU is not on our property.
> >  
>
>
> Nothing new to see here. This scenerio has
> repeated itself hundreds of times over the years
> on many different properties and the company
> doesn't need to negotiate a change in the
> agreement to make it happen. All they need is a
> workforce that has demonstrated its ability and
> willingness to do whatever it takes to do the same
> amount of work with four jobs that used to require
> eight. And then, over time, when half of the jobs
> have been abolished, the path of least resistance
> is to lay the blame for letting it happen on the
> doorsteps of the union officers instead of where
> it rightfully belongs.

So your telling me where you work if they double your work your going to tell them your not going to do it 
good luck with that we have no choice but to do it or they will fire you.
The mangers set in there trucks and watch us work and if you stop or try to take a brake they are all over
you its nothing like it use to be! I would quit but I'm to close to retirement.

ble692 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The unions may not be perfect, but the simple fact
> remains if we didn't have them we would all be a
> bunch of Walmart greeters.

A work colleague many years my senior observed that decline of union membership is coinciding with the decline of the middle class in the U.S. So I used my luddite research skills to find that union membership has declined from ~20% to ~10% between 1985 and now (2019/2020).

For people in denial of the decline in middle class, that's no surprise when some are now WILLING to sacrifice their quality of life for the gig economy (money is more important than living).

dpc37 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So your telling me where you work if they double
> your work your going to tell them your not going
> to do it 
> good luck with that we have no choice but to do it
> or they will fire you.
> The mangers set in there trucks and watch us work
> and if you stop or try to take a brake they are
> all over
> you its nothing like it use to be! I would quit
> but I'm to close to retirement.


Nobody said anything about refusing to do the work. Start by giving them 100% compliance with all applicable rules, no more,no less, and pace yourself accordingly. And if that causes you to run out of time and you can't get it all done, what rule violations are they gonna charge you with in order to dismiss you? Like my favorite old head yard engine foreman used to say, "work smarter, not harder"............... 

In my 20+ years of railroading, mostly in management, I have come to realize a few things on the topic of railroad unions:

• Unions exist because a small (yet debatable in size depending upon the subject railroad) portion of management failed to treat their employees right. 
• Training programs for new railroad managers fails to educate these new managers on union agreements.  This translates to lots of abrasion between the unionized workforce.  Now, let me be clear:  management can't use that excuse in the long-run as ignorance is no excuse. 
• Railroads bet on a percentage of disputed claims never to reach the arbitration process due to the fault of the unionized employee to file the claim.  On most roads,  this can be as high as 20%.   That's pure profit lining the bottom line. 
• Railroad executives have long discouraged front-line and mid-level managers from approving valid claims.  In fact, on one class one railroad the IT folks blocked access to the claims management system and the ability to approve a claim..yet the denial function worked like a charm! 
• A good manager will follow-through with the employee on valid claims.  Hell, I had no problem helping new unionized employees word their claims according to the union "form letter" or go in and approve a valid claim once the employee let me know they entered it in the computer.  Even in employee orientation, I was sure to give each employee a copy of the agreement.   While I left it to the union reps to go over the agreement in detail, at least they knew I was fair and objective. 
• There are some poorly written agreements out there.  Some are completely ambiguous and favor the railroad while others favor the employee.  The size and quantity of agreements really makes matters difficult for all involved. On the flip size,  one agreement for all railroads will never work. 
• The quantity of agreements is massive  at most Class 1 railroads.  I gave up keeping hard copies of all the agreements.
• Good union reps are worth their weight in gold. I write this as a railroad manager, which might seem counter-intuitive.   Having a good relationship with union reps,  even if you don't see eye to eye, is important.  They can iron-out small issues before they become larger ones.  Any time I was an investigating officer or a hearing officer, I saw the "good, the bad, and ugly" union reps.  Together,  the manager and union rep would "go to bat" for the good employees and work together to eliminate those very very few employees who were a danger to themselves (no joke!). 
• Check the income statements of the leadership of high-level union executives. They are very well compensated, yet I continually ask myself: "is the union membership getting value out of their membership dollar?"  The answer is no. Union executives are exploiting the crap out of rank and file.  However,  at that executive level of union leadership,  it is a political job.    The railroad executives and union executives golf together. 
• I'd encourage railroads to find more ways to compensate exemplar employees who are safe and efficient.  If railroad executives can earn bonuses, so should unionized employees.  However, as the railroad must follow the contract, if there is no bonus or reward clause written into the contract, the unionized employees aren't entitled to the same. 
• Board awards take years to get movement on.  The process needs to be improved and expedited.   The process of board awards is another racket, worthy of volumes of comments by me...but I'll spare you all. 
• I hope the next round of agreements can be both simplified, ensure all sides are valued,  and productivity and safety compensation are written into the fabric of the agreements. 

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/20 12:40 by BurtNorton.

De-certifying unions is big business, and pays very well for the law firms which specialize in the arcane details. 

(Secretary of Labor) Eugene Scalia reported $6.2 million in 2018 income from his former employer Gibson Dunn on his financial disclosure form.  His acceptance of the Secretary of Labor position was a huge reduction in pay. A sacrifice many people in public service gladly make.

 

I've been a member of Railway Workers United (https://www.railroadworkersunited.org/ for several years. I recommend that rail workers join, it is a pro-union group but one that recognizes that serious reform is needed and that we all need to work together rather than being pitted against each other. When you are a member you get a weekly newsletter which covers issues like this. Very worthwhile!

I'm a member of an air line pilots union (ALPA), and without that union, airline travel would be a lot less safe than it is today. I go to all of the union meetings, introduce resolutions, and maintain a close contact with my reps. I have also been a rep myself. It's sad to see the lack of participation by members, who then complain about the situation. Sounds like the railroad unions have the same problems.