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Date: 01/14/22 17:24
BNSF Mendota Subdivision Questions
Author: PRR_4859

Good Evening:

How many trains per day currently run over the Mendota Subdivision east of Galesburg? Any idea as to the symbols?

Thank you in advance.



Date: 01/15/22 02:43
Re: BNSF Mendota Subdivision Questions
Author: WLE2679

I don't know the specific symbols, but I would say 15-20 including Amtrak.    That being said, the only non mixed or unit freight trains I have seen on the line are UP double stacks trains.   The might run that way if the Transcon is backed up, I am not sure.   Everything else was either mixed freight or unit trains.   With the unit trains thats where some days could be a higher traffic count. 



Date: 01/15/22 08:10
Re: BNSF Mendota Subdivision Questions
Author: bmarti7

My guess is a little higher count. There are several coal trains that connect with CSX, NS and CN. The BN old timers still call this the "Mainline".

BB



Date: 01/15/22 09:00
Re: BNSF Mendota Subdivision Questions
Author: AaronJ

WLE2679 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That being said, the
> only non mixed or unit freight trains I have seen
> on the line are UP double stacks trains.   

Huh??? The UP hasn't run anything routinely on the Mendota sub in a few decades. They don't even have qualified crews to run on those trackage rights. The only thing UP-wise that runs through Galesburg isn't even on the Mendota sub as a pair of Z trains per day from G4 exist on the ex-ATSF Chillicothe sub.

Check the Galesburg cam for proof as literally nothing for UP runs that direction on the Mendota sub.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/22 11:50 by AaronJ.



Date: 01/15/22 10:18
Re: BNSF Mendota Subdivision Questions
Author: kevink

Here's a link to a 2019 thread: 
https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,4846499,4847355#msg-4847355

Seems consistent with what I have witnessed over the last two years. 

The Mendota Sub is also used to stage stack trains heading to Logistics Park soutwest of Joliet. BNSF either parks trains or uses the longer route to control arrivals at LPC.



Date: 01/15/22 11:04
Re: BNSF Mendota Subdivision Questions
Author: pbouzide

AaronJ echoed my thoughts here, connections to any of the UP ramps in Chicago off the Mendota sub are far from ideal and would involve reverse moves in places like Eola, Congress Park, the Belt Railway, or Western Ave. So I'd also be very surprised to see the UP trackage rights Z trains to/from KC on the Mendota. 

Speaking of Eola, is this where the "longer route" for the staged stack trains on the Mendota sub diverges to head to Joliet/LPC? They could also go Belt Railway at Cicero to Nerska, or even all the way to Western Ave/22nd St to reach the ex-ATSF via the new "BNSF Horseshoe". 



Date: 01/15/22 15:20
Re: BNSF Mendota Subdivision Questions
Author: WLE2679

Decades no, saw it with my own eyes in 2018 the last time I was there.   Not sure of the reason.   yes well aware of the former SP trackage rights trains on the transcon   Been going to Mendota and Streator since 1994.     AaronJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WLE2679 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > That being said, the
> > only non mixed or unit freight trains I have
> seen
> > on the line are UP double stacks trains.   
>
> Huh??? The UP hasn't run anything routinely on the
> Mendota sub in a few decades. They don't even have
> qualified crews to run on those trackage rights.
> The only thing UP-wise that runs through Galesburg
> isn't even on the Mendota sub as a pair of Z
> trains per day from G4 exist on the ex-ATSF
> Chillicothe sub.
>
> Check the Galesburg cam for proof as literally
> nothing for UP runs that direction on the Mendota
> sub.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/22 15:22 by WLE2679.



Date: 01/15/22 15:40
Re: BNSF Mendota Subdivision Questions
Author: kevink

pbouzide Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Speaking of Eola, is this where the "longer route"
> for the staged stack trains on the Mendota sub
> diverges to head to Joliet/LPC? They could also go
> Belt Railway at Cicero to Nerska, or even all the
> way to Western Ave/22nd St to reach the ex-ATSF
> via the new "BNSF Horseshoe". 

My understanding is that most of these use the connection to the CN/EJE at Eola. I saw a few last year further east on the Chicago Sub and heard via the grapevine that they used the new connection at Western Avenue and the Chillicothe Sub to reach LPC near Joliet. There is no direct connection at Nerska from the southbound Belt to the westbound ex-Santa Fe.

Posted from iPhone



Date: 01/15/22 16:43
Re: BNSF Mendota Subdivision Questions
Author: zchcsse

When did UP close Canal St?  That would be the latest they were exercising Trackage Rights on the Mendota.

Either way, you will NOT see UP intermodal trains on the Mendota Sub anymore unless it was some detour.   BNSF is running a handful of intermodal trains that way these days, and it's quite variable how many.  


WLE2679 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Decades no, saw it with my own eyes in 2018 the
> last time I was there.   Not sure of the
> reason.   yes well aware of the former SP
> trackage rights trains on the transcon   Been
> going to Mendota and Streator since 1994.   
>  AaronJ Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > WLE2679 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > That being said, the
> > > only non mixed or unit freight trains I have
> > seen
> > > on the line are UP double stacks trains.   
> >
> > Huh??? The UP hasn't run anything routinely on
> the
> > Mendota sub in a few decades. They don't even
> have
> > qualified crews to run on those trackage
> rights.
> > The only thing UP-wise that runs through
> Galesburg
> > isn't even on the Mendota sub as a pair of Z
> > trains per day from G4 exist on the ex-ATSF
> > Chillicothe sub.
> >
> > Check the Galesburg cam for proof as literally
> > nothing for UP runs that direction on the
> Mendota
> > sub.



Date: 01/15/22 17:29
Re: BNSF Mendota Subdivision Questions
Author: AaronJ

No, UP has not routinely run anything on the Mendota sub in decades. That is a fact. What you saw could be anything from a reroute...to a BNSF train with a UP power pay back. I'm not here to ruin your day, but as others have said, UP hasn't run anything routinely via the Mendota sub in decades. Anything else is simply an anomoly likely from a derailment that you can't count as part of a routine lineup. Sorry, but those are the facts on the Mendota sub.

WLE2679 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Decades no, saw it with my own eyes in 2018 the
> last time I was there.   Not sure of the
> reason.   yes well aware of the former SP
> trackage rights trains on the transcon   Been
> going to Mendota and Streator since 1994.   



Date: 01/15/22 18:14
Re: BNSF Mendota Subdivision Questions
Author: WLE2679

Where did I say I was a regular occurance?    In almost 30 years of railfaining the line that have been the only non mixed freight or unit trains I have seen.     you keep going on and on and on about it   Just telling you what I saw.    APL UMAX and CSX containers 

AaronJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, UP has not routinely run anything on the
> Mendota sub in decades. That is a fact. What you
> saw could be anything from a reroute...to a BNSF
> train with a UP power pay back. I'm not here to
> ruin your day, but as others have said, UP hasn't
> run anything routinely via the Mendota sub in
> decades. Anything else is simply an anomoly likely
> from a derailment that you can't count as part of
> a routine lineup. Sorry, but those are the facts
> on the Mendota sub.
>
> WLE2679 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Decades no, saw it with my own eyes in 2018 the
> > last time I was there.   Not sure of the
> > reason.   yes well aware of the former SP
> > trackage rights trains on the transcon   Been
> > going to Mendota and Streator since 1994.   



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/22 18:35 by WLE2679.



Date: 01/15/22 18:34
Re: BNSF Mendota Subdivision Questions
Author: kevink

zchcsse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When did UP close Canal St?  That would be the
> latest they were exercising Trackage Rights on the
> Mendota.
>

Canal Street closed mid-2019.

Posted from iPhone



Date: 01/15/22 19:42
Re: BNSF Mendota Subdivision Questions
Author: AaronJ

As I said earlier, I'm not here to ruin your day but for one, where did I say anything about some random derailment reroute not existing once every 5 years or something similar!?!? From my very first post I said "routinely" yet YOUR first post made ZERO mention of some freak reroute as here are your own words...

"That being said, the only non mixed or unit freight trains I have seen on the line are UP double stacks trains. The
might run that way if the Transcon is backed up, I am not sure"

You immediately implied a regular or at least semi-regular occurance via your "The might run that way if the Transcon is backed up, I am not sure" statement.

Listen, nobody is perfect as multiple people have now refuted your earlier assertion as I'll say it again, nothing UP-wise (even in a semi-regular level when the transcon is backed up), is running on the Mendota sub by UP. Zero, zip, zilch, nada. Now you know UP isn't part of the equation for the Mendota sub, simply adjust your records and move on.


WLE2679 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Where did I say I was a regular occurance?    In
> almost 30 years of railfaining the line that have
> been the only non mixed freight or unit trains I
> have seen.     you keep going on and on and on
> about it   Just telling you what I saw.   
> APL UMAX and CSX containers 
>
> AaronJ Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > No, UP has not routinely run anything on the
> > Mendota sub in decades. That is a fact. What
> you
> > saw could be anything from a reroute...to a
> BNSF
> > train with a UP power pay back. I'm not here to
> > ruin your day, but as others have said, UP
> hasn't
> > run anything routinely via the Mendota sub in
> > decades. Anything else is simply an anomoly
> likely
> > from a derailment that you can't count as part
> of
> > a routine lineup. Sorry, but those are the
> facts
> > on the Mendota sub.
> >
> > WLE2679 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Decades no, saw it with my own eyes in 2018
> the
> > > last time I was there.   Not sure of the
> > > reason.   yes well aware of the former SP
> > > trackage rights trains on the transcon 
>  Been
> > > going to Mendota and Streator since 1994.   



Date: 01/15/22 19:53
Re: BNSF Mendota Subdivision Questions
Author: AaronJ

kevink Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> zchcsse Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > When did UP close Canal St?  That would be the
> > latest they were exercising Trackage Rights on
> the
> > Mendota.
> >
>
> Canal Street closed mid-2019.
>
> Posted from iPhone

Even before Canal St. closed, UP was't running anything destined for the BNSF trackage rights (Mendota or Chillicothe subs) for years originating from that yard.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/22 07:56 by AaronJ.



Date: 01/15/22 20:01
Re: BNSF Mendota Subdivision Questions
Author: kevink

AaronJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even before Canal St. closed, UP was't running
> anything destined for the BNSF trackage rights
> (Mendota or Chillicothe subs) for years.

I took the time to research the date Canal Street shut down. Perhaps you could take some time to do the same for the trackage rights train and we can put this whole discussion to rest.



Date: 01/15/22 20:33
Re: BNSF Mendota Subdivision Questions
Author: WLE2679

AGAIN, simply replied with what I have seen.   If it was a known regular, would have said UP runs two trackage rights trains a day or something, didnt say that, simply making a point that has been the only not sort of general freight/unit train I have seen on the line. 

Ill keep my UP photos of UP stack trains (detour/crew shortage/derailment/whatver)  in my Mendota file and move on.   Just like I have the SP/UP photos of their stack trains at Joliet, Streator and Lisle.  

The original poster probably doesn't really care.    

PRR4859...sounds like 20 a day or more    The nice thing about the line is if you like mixed freights, unit trains and older power you will like the line.   There is a local out of Galesburg that used to at least arrive early afternoon in Mendota and a switch job is based out of Mendota.   

Thanks. 

AaronJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As I said earlier, I'm not here to ruin your day
> but for one, where did I say anything about some
> random derailment reroute not existing once every
> 5 years or something similar!?!? From my very
> first post I said "routinely" yet YOUR first post
> made ZERO mention of some freak reroute as here
> are your own words...
>
> "That being said, the only non mixed or unit
> freight trains I have seen on the line are UP
> double stacks trains. The
> might run that way if the Transcon is backed up, I
> am not sure"
>
> You immediately implied a regular or at least
> semi-regular occurance via your "The might run
> that way if the Transcon is backed up, I am not
> sure" statement.
>
> Listen, nobody is perfect as multiple people have
> now refuted your earlier assertion as I'll say it
> again, nothing UP-wise (even in a semi-regular
> level when the transcon is backed up), is running
> on the Mendota sub by UP. Zero, zip, zilch, nada.
> Now you know UP isn't part of the equation for the
> Mendota sub, simply adjust your records and move
> on.
>
>
> WLE2679 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Where did I say I was a regular occurance?   
> In
> > almost 30 years of railfaining the line that
> have
> > been the only non mixed freight or unit trains
> I
> > have seen.     you keep going on and on and
> on
> > about it   Just telling you what I saw.   
> > APL UMAX and CSX containers 
> >
> > AaronJ Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > No, UP has not routinely run anything on the
> > > Mendota sub in decades. That is a fact. What
> > you
> > > saw could be anything from a reroute...to a
> > BNSF
> > > train with a UP power pay back. I'm not here
> to
> > > ruin your day, but as others have said, UP
> > hasn't
> > > run anything routinely via the Mendota sub in
> > > decades. Anything else is simply an anomoly
> > likely
> > > from a derailment that you can't count as
> part
> > of
> > > a routine lineup. Sorry, but those are the
> > facts
> > > on the Mendota sub.
> > >
> > > WLE2679 Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Decades no, saw it with my own eyes in 2018
> > the
> > > > last time I was there.   Not sure of the
> > > > reason.   yes well aware of the former SP
> > > > trackage rights trains on the transcon 
> >  Been
> > > > going to Mendota and Streator since 1994. 
>  



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/22 20:34 by WLE2679.




Date: 01/16/22 14:55
Re: BNSF Mendota Subdivision Questions
Author: AaronJ

OK, here you go. UP was running 2-3 Z trains on BNSF trackage rights headed to/from Canal Street until around 2011 when it abruptly ended upon completion of Global IV as trains were moved to that new facility. This included the ZCSTU / ZTUCS pair along with the ZEPCS train. These trains were not running on the Mendota sub but rather ran on the Chillicothe sub as trains navigated from the ex-ATSF to the BRC, eventually getting to Canal St as alluded to in the following post about the ZEPCS...

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,2145980,2145992#msg-2145992

Here is a rough list of what was running back then although missing a few such as the ZEPCS...

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,1682919,1682919#msg-1682919

This should finally put this discussion to rest.

kevink Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AaronJ Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Even before Canal St. closed, UP was't running
> > anything destined for the BNSF trackage rights
> > (Mendota or Chillicothe subs) for years.
>
> I took the time to research the date Canal Street
> shut down. Perhaps you could take some time to do
> the same for the trackage rights train and we can
> put this whole discussion to rest.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/22 22:46 by AaronJ.



Date: 01/16/22 18:10
Re: BNSF Mendota Subdivision Questions
Author: WLE2679

Not 100% correct......credit Craig Williams.    Could run one of three routes to Chicago.   Look after 2012 was a detour move or something fine, whatever, 1994-2011 fair game on what sub it was on. 

https://www.railpictures.net/photo/320942/

AaronJ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OK, here you go. UP was running 2-3 Z trains on
> BNSF trackage rights headed to/from Canal Street
> until around 2011 when it abruptly ended upon
> completion of Global IV as trains were moved to
> that new facility. This included the ZCSTU / ZTUCS
> pair along with the ZEPCS train. These trains were
> not running on the Mendota sub but rather ran on
> the Chillicothe sub as trains navigated from the
> ex-ATSF to the BRC, then on to the ex-CNW to Canal
> St as alluded to in the following post about the
> ZEPCS...
>
> https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,
> 2145980,2145992#msg-2145992
>
> Here is a rough list of what was running back then
> although missing a few such as the ZEPCS...
>
> https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,
> 1682919,1682919#msg-1682919
>
> This should finally put this discussion to rest.
>
> kevink Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > AaronJ Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Even before Canal St. closed, UP was't
> running
> > > anything destined for the BNSF trackage
> rights
> > > (Mendota or Chillicothe subs) for years.
> >
> > I took the time to research the date Canal
> Street
> > shut down. Perhaps you could take some time to
> do
> > the same for the trackage rights train and we
> can
> > put this whole discussion to rest.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/22 18:16 by WLE2679.



Date: 01/16/22 19:10
Re: BNSF Mendota Subdivision Questions
Author: AaronJ

Sure, I don't doubt there were reroutes as a TO history search will reveal those over the last couple of decades. Additionally, while that obviously is a UP train Craig caught 12 years ago, doubt that was the ZTUCS for one glaring reason, you can't fit stacks or racks under the bridge between Canal St and the old BNSF Western Ave Yard on the Mendota sub. I have no idea what symbol that train was but since UP has poor access to other yards from the Mendota sub, that was more likely an unscheduled reroute off of either the UP Geneva sub or BNSF Chillicothe sub.

WLE2679 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not 100% correct......credit Craig Williams.   
> Could run one of three routes to Chicago.   Look
> after 2012 was a detour move or something fine,
> whatever, 1994-2011 fair game on what sub it was
> on. 
>
> RailPictures.Net Photo: UP 8384 Union Pacific EMD
> SD70ACe at Mendota, Illinois by Craig Williams
>
> AaronJ Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > OK, here you go. UP was running 2-3 Z trains on
> > BNSF trackage rights headed to/from Canal
> Street
> > until around 2011 when it abruptly ended upon
> > completion of Global IV as trains were moved to
> > that new facility. This included the ZCSTU /
> ZTUCS
> > pair along with the ZEPCS train. These trains
> were
> > not running on the Mendota sub but rather ran
> on
> > the Chillicothe sub as trains navigated from
> the
> > ex-ATSF to the BRC, eventually getting to
> Canal
> > St as alluded to in the following post about
> the
> > ZEPCS...
> >
> >
> https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,
>
> > 2145980,2145992#msg-2145992
> >
> > Here is a rough list of what was running back
> then
> > although missing a few such as the ZEPCS...
> >
> >
> https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,
>
> > 1682919,1682919#msg-1682919
> >
> > This should finally put this discussion to
> rest.
> >
> > kevink Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > AaronJ Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Even before Canal St. closed, UP was't
> > running
> > > > anything destined for the BNSF trackage
> > rights
> > > > (Mendota or Chillicothe subs) for years.
> > >
> > > I took the time to research the date Canal
> > Street
> > > shut down. Perhaps you could take some time
> to
> > do
> > > the same for the trackage rights train and we
> > can
> > > put this whole discussion to rest.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/22 22:50 by AaronJ.



Date: 01/17/22 18:13
Re: BNSF Mendota Subdivision Questions
Author: pbouzide

Not eager to get into any p****** contests, but here are a few things I've observed. 

1. Before the UP-SP merger, SP intermodals terminated at the ICG "IMX" ramp off the Santa Fe at Damen Ave. I'm not certain what route they took to get there, but the SP did have rights on BN connecting at KC from their Cotton Rock via Brookfield, Quincy, Galesburg... and yes the Mendota Sub. I've only witnessed lumber-laden SP manifests on this route, but that doesn't mean they didn't run their stack trains this way back then. Might be good to see hiw quickly BNSF built the Cameron Connection post-merger. 

2. UP/Canal Street was historically a MoPac ramp for Texas IM service. The ex-CNW Ogden Jct connection to Wood Street cum Global 1, and on to the St Charles Air Line I suppose could have been used to get to Canal Street via the 21st Street lift bridge, but I don't know if CNW (or following that UP) had rights over this segment and if yes would have required a slow move of a lengthy train crossing over multiple mains and holding up considerable Metra and Amtrak BNSF traffic, the Amtrak reverse moves to gain the St Charles Air Line for IC route trains, and BN(SF) to NS interchange which does run via 21st without interfering with the Dinkies and the Amtraks. This interchange uses tracks south of the passenger mains heading into Union Station. The ex-CNW and the St Charles connection ramp is north of them. 

3. Speaking of BNSF-NS interchange via 21 Street and Western Ave yard, this routing includes as I've frequently observed from the CTA Pink Line domestic stacked 53s as steel wheel interchange between BNSF/Cicero and NS/47th Street (and now probably also their block swap point at Colehour Yard). So that route is indeed cleared for domestic stacks, or at least it has been since the early 2010s. Note also that the ancient flyover from the NS side of the north-south Western Ave Corridor (ex-Pennsy Panhandle) connecting to the BNSF toward Cicero Yard can clear stacked international containers in steel wheel interchange, but not donestic 53s, similar to CP's Detroit Tunnel. 



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/22 18:22 by pbouzide.



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