Western Railroad Discussion > Arizona wants to eliminate derailments by limiting train length

train length story
Legislation approved by the House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure Friday would require all trains to be less than 8,500 feet – about 1.6 miles.

Yup, that will work. How appropriate that a photo of an Amtrak train accompanies that article!
Go

Yep...they have a good point, especially with "Key Trains," (hazardous materials).

I am sure that the very long trains of today present unique handling problems, but how many derailments can be traced to train length? The E Palestine derailment was apparently caused by a hotbox and broken axle. 

This is a question, not a retort to the original post. I simply do not know the answer to the question I have posed.

colehour Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am sure that the very long trains of today
> present unique handling problems, but how many
> derailments can be traced to train length?

I think it is not a question of did train length cause a derailment, but rather that train length and associated increased tonnage contributes to the severity of the derailment.

IT's a fact when big trains derail they make bigger messes....but a little train with enough polypropyl bad stuff will make a plenty big mess by itself....I think the railroads will make that and other observations in fighting this. The problem is if you cut train lengths in today's world...stuff won't get delivered...because in spite of the hiring spree...we still don't have enough people to run the trains as they are! If anyone thinks we can run shorter trains (and I wish we could) I need you to volunteer your services to come and work for the railroad!

what power do the states have i thought this was federal?

dan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> what power do the states have i thought this was
> federal?

None.

It's just one party in Arizona virtue signalling.  They know they have no power to change anything. 

It's when a political party actually has the power to do something and suddenly turns tail that the fun starts.  Like "Repeal and replace with something better...",  for years, but when they actually controlled government, all of it, they couldn't quite get it started.  Gutting Medicare will be the same way.

As much as I'm with Arizona on this, don't the feds have jurisdiction over the railroads and not states?

Mark Kennebeck
Saint Paul, MN

The best case scenario for this to be applicable would be for trains originating and terminating in Arizona, run through trains probably wouldn't apply as that is federal interstate commerce. I imagine locals are already well within this length. Even that would still likely be under federal say so. Didn't Iowa try or is trying the same thing?

The SP invested millions of dollars installing CTC with a standard siding length of 8300 feet, from Sierra Blanca to Flatonia, Texas.
By the logic of AZ, there should not have been any derailments after that.
Uh-Oh.
Detail fractures, hotboxes, sunkinks, grade crossing collisions-derailments, shifted loads, and broken frame sills never got the word.

It's interesting that all these Double, 16000 ft trains came about during the Covid pandemic. We need a temporary FRA Covid waiver to do whatever we want on the Railroad as we have reduced manpower due to Covid. Well, Covid is over, manpower is back , mainly due to draconian attendance policies that have you chained to the Railroad, and the Double trains are still here. Goes to show you, they get whatever they want. All temporary waivers become permanent in the end. Same thing happened with car inspections. Run these trains clear across the country without anyone inspecting them at the terminals. Good idea, just think how much money we'll save.
 

One of the 'ideas' that has developed is that mid-train DPU's and tail end DPU's (as well as FREDS) substitue for long brake air line propogation times on extreme train length, and on receipt of an emergency braking signal, make up for the issues of 'telescope' crushes on emergency brake applications.   I.e. DPU's and FREDS make up for extreme train length under emergency applications.

That's sort of true, mostly true.   But if you want a good hard dose of reality, you have to also recognize the UP runaway near Cheyenne that was fully investigated by the NTSB in 2018.    I was rather astounded to see how long the 'transmission gaps' could be and still be acceptable.  Yes, UP fixed it with more repeaters.  After the fact.   But the 'lag' time, under just the wrong circumstances, on transmission gaps, is still rather astounding.   And if the front end goes into emergency and the back end is still crankin' away or getting nothing, it's going to be much, much worse.

"The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of the collision was the failure of the Union Pacific train MGRCY04 air brake system due to an air flow restriction in the brake pipe and the failure of the end-of-train device to respond to an emergency brake command. 

See https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket?ProjectID=98413

Everything the NTSB does follows that old maxim of "The wheels of god grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly fine"

There's been a couple past derailments with DPU's on NS in this region where it was reputed (but no NTSB investigation) that the software in the lead units wasn't fully compatible with the software in the DPU's, Lead units went into emergency and the DPU's didn't.  That was rumored, but not proven, and DPU's were 'fixed', no catastrophic hazmat or injuries, just a mess.   So as reliable as these systems may be, what happens when they fail can make the bad worse.
I've been of the opinion that geography and interference are features that are very much location specific; i.e. what works fine for BNSF in the wide open spaces of Arizona and New Mexico for a monster train may not work at all in close confines and tight curved mountain right-of-ways, small towns full of every imaginable radio frequency chatter now, etc.    

But whatever, if you're willing to be patient, and look at the level that the STB put into Granite Canyon, you will get answers.   Just not fast.
 

I like the part about not blocking crossings. That should’ve been addressed years ago.

Posted from iPhone

Doug Wetherhold
Macungie, PA

Ya know, sometimes you can get something thats needed , for the wrong reasons.

No, the derailment was not caused by train length, that we know at this point...
But if it can be used to limit train length and weight, I'll take it.

a 25K ton train has twice as much kinetic energy as a 12.5K ton train, moving at the same speed.
Is anyone here going to try to tell me that 25,000 tons moving at 40 mph is not a potential huge castatrophe?  Do we have to to wait for a train to derail at the wrong spot and wipe out a neighborhood, before we address this issue.
Typical of business...its not a problem, until we kill a bunch of people.   Just keep pushing for max profits, and we'll deal with problems after they happen.
And  corporate response to the Palestine derailment just shoiws NS's acceptance of derailments as "an acceptable cost of doing business".  Their reaction was that its was a nothingburger...and they are going to get their asses kicked now..and rightly so. 

We are back to the gilded age....money and power  is more important than life.   Just bc a lot of this world is uncivilized, doesnt mean we have to be too......

pdt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ya know, sometimes you can get something thats
> needed , for the wrong reasons.
>
> No, the derailment was not cause by train length,
> that we know at this point...
> But if it can be used to limit train length and
> weight, I'll take it.
>
> a 25K ton train has twice as much kinetic energy
> as a 12.5K ton train, moving at the same speed.
> Is anyone here going to try to tell me that 25,000
> tons moving at 40 mph is not a potential huge
> castatrophe?  Do we have to to wait for a train
> to derail at the wrong spot and wipe out a
> neighborhood, before we address this issue.
> Typical of business...its not a problem, until we
> kill a bunch of people.   Just keep pushing for
> max profits, and we'll deal with problems after
> they happen.
> And  corporate response to the Palisteine
> derailment just shoiws NS's acceptance of
> derailments as "an acceptable cost of doing
> business".  Their reaction as that its was a
> nothingburger...and they are going to get their
> asses kicked now..and rightly so. 
>
> We are back to the gilded age....money and power 
> is more important than life.   Just bc a lot of
> this world is uncivilized, doesnt mean we have to
> be too......

Well said and couldn't agree more. NS might want to borrow a few more million while they still can. 

 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/23 11:27 by MILW-E78.

Is the delay in transmitting brake pressure changes to the rear of the train the point Secretary Pete was trying to make last week?

It's understandable that the back end of the train is still pushing via kinetic enerrgy as the change in brake pressure is working its way back in the train.

I would also think that the probability of having a derailment causing mechanical defect in at least one care is twice as high for a 200 car train than a 100 car train. I definitely agree that trains have gotten too long. They should be limited to the length of the sidings. Blocking of crossings are becoming a major issue in some areas, especially when the long trains are stopped at signals. Ever crossing for over 2 miles may be blocked, which causes problems for emergency vehicles. 

I have wondered how many more grade crossing collisions or close calls have happened since the PSR era of monster trains began.  While people often run the flashing lights and have always gone around gates, wondering if it has increased though I am pretty sure there is no statistic on that.  If people are used to getting delay 3 or 4 minutes for a train they can accept that, but if they are going to be delayed getting to work or the kids to school for 15 minutes while a land barge creeps by, or if in a place where trains stop and block the crossing for an hour, how many people roll the dice and try to beat the train?   That is one area where regulating train length may have some merit in my opinion.

Where people get pissed is blocked crossings.  And if you are there when a monster train stops you can be there for 20 minutes or more.  It can take 5-7 minutes for a long train to clear a crossing at 20 MPH speed restriction.  But, let it stop there and you can be there for a half hour or more for a 15,000 ft. train.  And many railroads, like UP, have established a "normal length" for a passing track at 15,000 ft. not 8500. They have almost completely rebuilt the x-T&P passing tracks to those lengths, some even longer in the 17,500 ft range.