Western Railroad Discussion > The UPRR dependence on I-80 over Donner

Have been watching over two winters now the UPRR operation over Donner Pass and how Interstate 80 conditions directly affect railroad operations.  

When using Donner there's only The Overland Route across the Great Basin of Nevada. That means anyone spending much time say in Lovelock, NV (on the Overland) can tell how traffic is flowing over Donner just by watching how many trains go by.  

There is a direct correlation between the snow conditions on I-80 over Donner Pass and the ability of the UPRR to operate over the Pass. 

When 80 shuts down the railroad shuts down. It takes a few hours to see it out here but it most definitely happens every time.  

If there are chain-controls on 80 the railroad operates at a level dependent on how long of a stretch is under chain-control. Trains are almost non-existent out here when it starts snowing real heavy on Donner and driving on 80 is especially nasty although allowed.  

Been watching it like clockwork.  The UPRR it appears depends on 80 to get crews and equipment places. When the highway glitches you can see the affect on RR traffic big time.

Chuck  

same with I 70 in colorado and the UP  and especially amtrak

They have to get there some how if the crew is dead..... and the tracks aren't clear.

Posted from Android

goduckies Wrote:
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> They have to get there some how if the crew is
> dead..... and the tracks aren't clear.
>

How did they get there before I-80 ?
Or were the tracks kept clear ?

Until about 1930 the highway over Donner stayed closed all winter, same as the other passes.

There was a highway thru this area long before I-80.  Think its number was 30?.  Not sure.  Believe 80's routing may be different in some places from the old 30.  Don't know if the rr routing has had some changes.  Doubt it because of the tunnels still being used.   

I think that's pretty much SOP on all RRs these days.  It's probably cheaper and definitely easier to just shut down until the Hwy dept. clears the roads, then get the RR opened back up.  As we've discussed ad nauseum, RRs are no longer the all weather transportation mode they once were. 

To many of us "older" guys that style of operation is  anathema, but modern RR management seems to be pretty okay with it.

Andy

Next question: where did SP get the employees standing by to keep Donner open in winter? What were those people doing the rest of the year?

Three or four years ago I took the California Zephyr eastbound from Sacramento.  It was snowing heavily but we got over the pass okay, though had to wait for about an hour to follow a spreader or flanger.  I remember looking down at I-80 and seeing a foot or two of unplowed snow over it.  It was obviously closed.

Stan Praisewater

sagehen Wrote:
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> Three or four years ago I took the California
> Zephyr eastbound from Sacramento.  It was snowing
> heavily but we got over the pass okay, though had
> to wait for about an hour to follow a spreader or
> flanger.  I remember looking down at I-80 and
> seeing a foot or two of unplowed snow over it. 
> It was obviously closed.
>
> Stan Praisewater

We had this discussion about a month ago, and what you witnessed on Donner (instead of around it) collaborates with a UP insider who said trains fleet after the snow equipment clears the tracks.

So while RailDawg's snow conditions --> I-80 + snow conditions --> UPRR operations correlation is correct, I-80 --> UPRR correlation is indirect, and not quite accurate. Have to watch the traffic more than clockwork - an accurate picture requires 24/7 observation, and I don't expect any one person to do that (lack of sleep --> sleep deprivation psychosis). I cited an example of a westbound Z train that was delayed only about half a day due to the "shut down."

Part of the change is (in my observation) that the FRA now is very strict on enforcement of Hours of Service.
"Back in the day" they could accept an HOS violation for operating emergencies, charging the company a fine.
Now I believe anyone causing, directing, or participating in an HOS violation is personally charged with a willful violation of the law.
The price of improved safety I guess.

railstiesballast Wrote:
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> Part of the change is (in my observation) that the
> FRA now is very strict on enforcement of Hours of
> Service.
> "Back in the day" they could accept an HOS
> violation for operating emergencies, charging the
> company a fine.
> Now I believe anyone causing, directing, or
> participating in an HOS violation is personally
> charged with a willful violation of the law.
> The price of improved safety I guess.


Or the result of too many railroads gaming the system.

"Back in the day" there were section men scattered all along the railroad who could be called upon to shovel out switches and do similar tasks to keep the railroad open during storms. I bet tower operators, station agents, and signalmen got called upon to pitch in, too. Now that everything is automated and there are few if any employees stationed out in the field, the railroad no longer has that resource.

When the SP staffed the Norden “mole town” during the winter, maintenance crews would be stationed close by to help keep things clear and moving. Now they are reliant on the main highway being open to arrive via truck.

Gary

Posted from iPhone

Englewood Wrote:
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> goduckies Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > They have to get there some how if the crew is
> > dead..... and the tracks aren't clear.
> >
>
> How did they get there before I-80 ?
> Or were the tracks kept clear ?
Yes, except in 1952 and 1967

timz Wrote:
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> Next question: where did SP get the employees
> standing by to keep Donner open in winter? What
> were those people doing the rest of the year?
At Norden or Truckee. Extra men brought up from Colfax or Roseville

Huge mining operations in N Nevada have the same problem with every winter storm. 

Workers are housed many miles and thousands of feet in elevation away from the diggings that tend to be at tops of mountains.  

Not sure the thinking about the workforce of either the mines or the RR's being scattered to the wind to live. 

In the olden days workers lived with their families (if feasible) at the mines or next to the tracks.  The mines and trains kept rolling in almost all weather. 

There is an amazing amount of RR tonnage that passes by out here every day. Am quite sure the folks at the receiving want/need their freight cars delivered in a timely manner.  

Chuck 
 

RailDawg Wrote:
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>  Am quite sure the
> folks at the receiving want/need their freight
> cars delivered in a timely manner.  

I don't think the wants and needs of the customer rank very highly in the priorities of today's class one RRs.

Andy

True dat. 

Chuck 

cchan006 Wrote:
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> ...So while RailDawg's snow conditions --> I-80 +
> snow conditions --> UPRR operations correlation is
> correct, I-80 --> UPRR correlation is indirect,
> and not quite accurate. Have to watch the traffic
> more than clockwork - an accurate picture requires
> 24/7 observation, and I don't expect any one
> person to do that (lack of sleep --> sleep
> deprivation psychosis)...

The Southwest Railcams camera at the Roseville Depot captures the rail traffic there, a rolling 12 hours at a time.  You could note all the trains without sleep deprivation by looking at the 12-hour replay several times a day.  Then you need to subtract the trains to/from the Valley Sub just east of the camera.  ATCS used to show that interlocking, but it is no longer monitorable.  Lineups would be nice, but sometimes they are difficult to match to the on-camera trains.  You could note the trains past the Redding railcam, but that only subtracts the Redding trains, there are still locals and Canyon Sub trains.  There's the Portola Museum railcam but it's not easy, especially after dark, to match up the trains passing there to the ones at Roseville.  You could organize teams to watch the Truckee camera, but who wants to take the 0300 shift?

mapboy