Western Railroad Discussion > UP stack train blown off the track

Happened yesterday near Abilene, TX.  Video on Weather Channel site.  https://weather.com/storms/severe/video/train-derails-during-texas-severe-thunderstorms

Why wouldn't the train crew stop under those conditions?

didn't have time to watch, maybe it was stopped?

Says wind may have been the cause.
Could be routine derailment for all we know.

Good question if moving or stopped.   I've seen UP dispatch into storms anyway if the arrival penalty of the containers at destination is high enough and the pressure is on.

There are standards established on what the forecast wind speed it vs. the 'calculated' overturn wind speed of a doublestack is.   Also depends if it is 'loaded' or 'empty', but there's been no distinguishing between a load of car batteries or a load of My Pillows in terms of wind behavior.  Loads are loads.

What I've been surprised at is that the Hulcher or similar crews usually just clear the track and destroy everything.   No attempt at salvage of the lading even if it's not actually damaged on the granular level.  And you'll see it claimed as an 'act of God' to the shippers and no damage payouts will be offered unless somebody sues.

UP had added a lot of wind detectors in suspect spots, that's another thing entirely on where they are or if it really was accurately forecast or recorded.

Been there, done that.

dan Wrote:
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> didn't have time to watch, maybe it was stopped?

Definately a moving train, cars and containers everywhere with many partly or totally mangled.  One video shows very strong winds in area.

RR

randgust Wrote:
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> What I've been surprised at is that the Hulcher or
> similar crews usually just clear the track and
> destroy everything.   No attempt at salvage of
> the lading even if it's not actually damaged on
> the granular level.  And you'll see it claimed as
> an 'act of God' to the shippers and no damage
> payouts will be offered unless somebody sues.

Legal liability reasons. Depending upon location and cargo the insurance underwriter may contact a third party and offer salvage rights for a price. 

This could have been caused by a small tornado.

I was on Amtrak several years ago on the Empire Builder.  We were going through North Dakota and we got slowed to 50 MPH due to winds.  If
the Superliners can be blown over, I would imagine that double stacks could also be blown over.  I had a neighbor that worked in car maintenance
department.  He said they would gather a few cars from the yard, one at a time.  He said it wasn't uncommon for them to gather a few cars and
put them on a track while they gathered other cars.  When they returned to that track, the cars might be a quarter mile down the track.  The wind had blown them.  The wind has tremendous power but it's hard for us to believe it because we usually can't see it.

John

The containers appear to have been empty as there were no spilled loads.
—Mac

tomstp Wrote:
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> This could have been caused by a small tornado.

An expert can tell the difference between straight-line winds and a circular tornado.

Anyone know the symbol of this train?  It could be a repo of empties, to end the speculation.

mapboy

There were storm chasers nearby and videotare YouTube Live Streams Media channel.

PCBill

Late to reply.  The train crew can see its windy but "so what"? Unless we're informed by the dispatcher to stop because of conditions, you keep going.  Conditions might be, Tornado, flooding, washout we can see, but we don't know wind speeds.  I blew out of West Colton on a Z train with a stack train stopped and the Eucalyptus Trees bent over.  I was wondering why I was moving with TOFC when the stack train was stopped.  Got called at Onatrio to stop the train for high winds.  Dead calm where I was at.  Turns out we should not have allowed to go, but that head in the sand for the Z train.

radar Wrote:
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> Why wouldn't the train crew stop under those
> conditions?

I am certain that the train WAS stopped.   I attended a meteorologial presentation by railroad personnel several years ago -- I think it was ATSF.   They, and all other Class I railroads in the USA have contracts with meteorological forecasting organizations that provide them with up-to-the-minute severe weather forecasts throughout their service territory.  The dispatchers then immediately stop all trains in potentionally affected areas, using the information obtained from the meteorologial contractors.

Doesn't prevent derailments from direct hits, but a derailment of a stopped train is typically less harmful to life and property than derailment of a moving train.

Hakk

Even stopped trains can be blown over in high straight-line winds.  Years ago, when I lived in SE Wyoming, a long cut of empty autoracks was blown over at the west end of the Cheyenne, Wyoming yard by hurricane-force winds (not uncommon in SE Wyoming).  Ironically, it was right across W. Lincolnway (old U.S. 30) from where Hulcher Services was then located.  They laid plywood across Lincolnway, and drove the sideboom dozers from the Hulcher equipment yard right to the overturned autoracks.  I guess if something is going to derail, right across the street from Hulcher is a convenient place to do it.

chakk Wrote:
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> radar Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why wouldn't the train crew stop under those
> > conditions?
>
> I am certain that the train WAS stopped.   I
> attended a meteorologial presentation by railroad
> personnel several years ago -- I think it was
> ATSF.   They, and all other Class I railroads in
> the USA have contracts with meteorological
> forecasting organizations that provide them with
> up-to-the-minute severe weather forecasts
> throughout their service territory.  The
> dispatchers then immediately stop all trains in
> potentionally affected areas, using the
> information obtained from the meteorologial
> contractors.
>
> Doesn't prevent derailments from direct hits, but
> a derailment of a stopped train is typically less
> harmful to life and property than derailment of a
> moving train.
>
> Hakk


A stopped train would have blown over, mostly in line.  The big, twisted pileup and accordian effect up front says it was moving.  Forecasters are not always able to pinpoint and predict every wild gust or downburst, then you have the communication delay.  Sometimes things happen that are nobody's fault.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/24 11:24 by baretables.

The research I ended up doing involving doublestack blowovers did have some science behind it for wind tunnel calculations, so it had some research behind it.   Policy was set from those studies for UP and BNSF.

What it didn't have, and to my knowledge still doesn't, is the impact if the track is elevated on a fill or similar, or if the track is open underneath allowing airflow under the car.  Wierd things happen to doublestacks.  Some of the most catastrophic ones have been off bridges.   Happens even off of low ones.  But it's more dramatic on one like the blow-over on the Huey P. Long bridge.

If you want to see the ultimate pucker moment, check this out:  https://youtu.be/U7WfeV01A4g?feature=shared

There's been a few like that where there's something different going on aerodynamically at lower wind speeds.