Western Railroad Discussion > Update on the UPS shifting business rumor

There have been a couple discussions regarding BNSF losing some or all of UPS's business in the LA-Chicago lane since March, so...

Well something is definitely going on. UP trains ZCIG4/ZG4CI now have UPS containers on them (over 15 on some days) and generally more UPS trailers. These trains are also handling some FedEx "cans" and ABF trailers as well; that is new.

Additionally FedEx containers are showing up on other UP Z trains, primarily in the LA-Memphis lane.


Keith_Kevet

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/24 19:52 by Keith_Kevet.

           Seeing the same on the Golden State Route.

Keith_Kevet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There have been a couple discussions regarding
> BNSF losing some or all of UPS's business in the
> LA-Chicago lane since March, so...
>
> Well something is definitely going on. UP trains
> ZCIG4/ZG4CI now have UPS containers on them (over
> 15 on some days) and generally more UPS trailers.
> These trains are also handling some FedEx "cans"
> and ABF trailers as well; that is new.
>
> Additionally FedEx containers are showing up on
> other UP Z trains, primarily in the LA-Memphis
> lane.
>
>
> Keith_Kevet
>
> Posted from Android

Now is this existing UPS business that the BNSF "lost" or is it new business? 

I’m going to wager that it is business that BNSF has lost.

And it’s no wonder with the amount of disrespect the priority Q’s and Z’s are run and treated with…at least in the NW anyways…I’m sure the same disrespect is elsewhere as well.

I heard a couple hub mangers a few weeks ago discussing how we are losing container business to the UP…because they are departing and arriving theirs on time and charging less. Bnsf better get it together…drop the silly restrictions and movement planner shenanigans and part the seas for the Z’s…it may be too late.

But that would also mean running more traditional sized trains again instead of PSR monsters. One huge issue is that the PSR monsters don’t fit anywhere…so they keep rolling on the mains while the Z’s take the siding and sit for hours.

Another aspect, in the NW anyways…the Z’s have no help when departing or landing. Most of the utility positions have been eliminated…that right there adds excessive time to get the train together or land it…as it takes a conductor alone on the ground much longer to do it all unassisted. You would figure that the railroad would bend over backwards to do whatever it could do help with the needs of these trains…but they have done quite the opposite…and the drawbacks are grossly negative…



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/24 10:43 by Texican65.

does anybody know IF the u.p. has increased any ups intermodal traffic on the cima sub through vegas?  if so, what are the symbols of these trains?

thanks for any info...........

66

UPS mentioned on the earnings call that they were examining every service lane. It is possible they moved some business from highway to rail and repositioned the drivers.

Posted from Android

PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now is this existing UPS business that the BNSF
> "lost" or is it new business? 

Business pissed away by Big Orange. As Keith pointed out, FedEx and ABF both moved traffic over to Global 4 from BNSF in April due to the recent service issues, whether this is short term or long term is to be seen. Amazon is also rumored to be looking at moving traffic to UP as well

Meanwhile it’s still idle @ 40 and notch 5 restrictions on the southern transcon as it slowly becomes “fluid” again

Posted from iPhone

Milw_E70 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PHall Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Now is this existing UPS business that the BNSF
> > "lost" or is it new business? 
>
> Business pissed away by Big Orange. As Keith
> pointed out, FedEx and ABF both moved traffic over
> to Global 4 from BNSF in April due to the recent
> service issues, whether this is short term or long
> term is to be seen. Amazon is also rumored to be
> looking at moving traffic to UP as well
>
> Meanwhile it’s still idle @ 40 and notch 5
> restrictions on the southern transcon as it slowly
> becomes “fluid” again
>
> Posted from iPhone

I still don't understand Katie Farmer's quote mentioning international container business with next to nothing about domestic, UPS, ect. Since when is the marine container intermodal side more important than the domestic side??

I truly don't get it...


Keith_Kevet

Posted from Android

goneon66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> does anybody know IF the u.p. has increased any
> ups intermodal traffic on the cima sub through
> vegas?  if so, what are the symbols of these
> trains?
>
> thanks for any info...........
>
> 66

The ZLBDV and ZSCLB both carry UPS but not alot of it. The ZSCLB is the hotter of the two but not by much.

They also run a ZDVLB, but its mostly marine cans (heavy on MSC containers) moving back west from Denver.


Keith_Kevet

Posted from Android

And Katy wants better fluid trains but still has 40 mph and throttle 5 restrictions.  Surely she is smarter than that but, it looks like not s0.

 The LA to Memphis Z's have always carried a handful of Fed Ex cans at least over the last 5 years.   What's new is 10+ Fed Ex cans on the ZLAMQ trains to Dallas/Mesquite.  That is likely coming off BNSF.   Wondering how long til UP starts a Z train from LA to Houston now. 

Ah yes, the rebirth of the LAHOT!

Out

Texican65 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I’m going to wager that it is business that BNSF
> has lost.
>
> And it’s no wonder with the amount of disrespect
> the priority Q’s and Z’s are run and treated
> with…at least in the NW anyways…I’m sure the
> same disrespect is elsewhere as well.
>
> I heard a couple hub mangers a few weeks ago
> discussing how we are losing container business to
> the UP…because they are departing and arriving
> theirs on time and charging less. Bnsf better get
> it together…drop the silly restrictions and
> movement planner shenanigans and part the seas for
> the Z’s…it may be too late.
>
> But that would also mean running more traditional
> sized trains again instead of PSR monsters. One
> huge issue is that the PSR monsters don’t fit
> anywhere…so they keep rolling on the mains while
> the Z’s take the siding and sit for hours.
>
> Another aspect, in the NW anyways…the Z’s have
> no help when departing or landing. Most of the
> utility positions have been eliminated…that
> right there adds excessive time to get the train
> together or land it…as it takes a conductor
> alone on the ground much longer to do it all
> unassisted. You would figure that the railroad
> would bend over backwards to do whatever it could
> do help with the needs of these trains…but they
> have done quite the opposite…and the drawbacks
> are grossly negative…

Vena said he was going after as much Big Orange business that he possibly could. This would be the result. As more FedEx business goes to them in the LA lane, big orange will just be left holding the empty bag. They have done it to themselves, and have no one else to blame. A few folks at the top probably need to be shown the door. But at this point, HE, may just be ready to dump it off to someone else. We will see.
 

Keith_Kevet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Milw_E70 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > PHall Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Now is this existing UPS business that the
> BNSF
> > > "lost" or is it new business? 
> >
> > Business pissed away by Big Orange. As Keith
> > pointed out, FedEx and ABF both moved traffic
> over
> > to Global 4 from BNSF in April due to the
> recent
> > service issues, whether this is short term or
> long
> > term is to be seen. Amazon is also rumored to
> be
> > looking at moving traffic to UP as well
> >
> > Meanwhile it’s still idle @ 40 and notch 5
> > restrictions on the southern transcon as it
> slowly
> > becomes “fluid” again
> >
> > Posted from iPhone
>
> I still don't understand Katie Farmer's quote
> mentioning international container business with
> next to nothing about domestic, UPS, ect. Since
> when is the marine container intermodal side more
> important than the domestic side??
>
> I truly don't get it...
>
>
> Keith_Kevet
>
> Posted from Android

When the Panama Canal starts to see more rainfall this year, she is probably going to loose most of the East coast business back to them. Right now that business is just temporary, as they have seen an up tick in loadings on the west coast docks.
The big container shipping alliance ends at the end of the year as well, so more changes could be coming in regards to that as well.
I'm sure the top brass has it all figured out. But for now, let's keep it 40 and idle, and don't use power over the fifth notch. Great job guys.
 

I have noticed on the UP Z-LBDV train there is at least one UPS trailer going eastbound pst Cajon now. I don't think that used to be the case. This trailer usually stays on past SLC and is in the same position as it passes Laramie camera next day. So that might be a small "win" for UP in competing with Highway. UP shows a 2 day transit time from LA to Denver for Priority traffic, that seems fairly competitive.. 

okcrr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have noticed on the UP Z-LBDV train there is at
> least one UPS trailer going eastbound pst Cajon
> now. I don't think that used to be the case. This
> trailer usually stays on past SLC and is in the
> same position as it passes Laramie camera next
> day. So that might be a small "win" for UP in
> competing with Highway. UP shows a 2 day transit
> time from LA to Denver for Priority traffic, that
> seems fairly competitive.. 

I note how much visible UPS (there's often a lot in others' trailers and containers) there is on trains.  For the Z-LBDV, going back to 12/4/22, 6 out of 6 sightings had 1-2 UPS.  For 10/23 to 10/27/22, 2 out of 5 had UPS.  So there has been a trickle of UPS in the past.  Nice to know that you saw it go to Denver, thanks for the observation!

mapboy

okcrr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have noticed on the UP Z-LBDV train there is at
> least one UPS trailer going eastbound pst Cajon
> now. I don't think that used to be the case. This
> trailer usually stays on past SLC and is in the
> same position as it passes Laramie camera next
> day. So that might be a small "win" for UP in
> competing with Highway. UP shows a 2 day transit
> time from LA to Denver for Priority traffic, that
> seems fairly competitive.. 

it has varied over the years  i think

Milw_E70 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Meanwhile it’s still idle @ 40 and notch 5
> restrictions on the southern transcon as it slowly
> becomes “fluid” again

I remember about 10-12 years ago when one of UP's hottest trains (ZLCBR, LATC in SoCal to Brooklyn, OR) was crippled with "fuel conservation rules in effect" or such nonsense that slowed the train somewhat. I don't see that on the UP anymore.

BNSF ran their Zs (especially the Z9s to North Bay) without that restriction then. Since ZWSPNBY and ZLCBR both came to Stockton, and I caught them on the same day whenver I went out there, there was much more consistency with the BNSF Z9s. Good times.

I get a funny feeling that whoever came up with that idea to "save money" might now work for BNSF. The question, which will likely remain unanswered is whether that person/idea was brought to BNSF on purpose to sabotage the competition. Further speculation can be done silently with the phrase cui bono.

cchan006 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Milw_E70 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Meanwhile it’s still idle @ 40 and notch 5
> > restrictions on the southern transcon as it
> slowly
> > becomes “fluid” again
>
> I remember about 10-12 years ago when one of UP's
> hottest trains (ZLCBR, LATC in SoCal to Brooklyn,
> OR) was crippled with "fuel conservation rules in
> effect" or such nonsense that slowed the train
> somewhat. I don't see that on the UP anymore.
>
> BNSF ran their Zs (especially the Z9s to North
> Bay) without that restriction then. Since ZWSPNBY
> and ZLCBR both came to Stockton, and I caught them
> on the same day whenver I went out there, there
> was much more consistency with the BNSF Z9s. Good
> times.
>
> I get a funny feeling that whoever came up with
> that idea to "save money" might now work for BNSF.
> The question, which will likely remain unanswered
> is whether that person/idea was brought to BNSF on
> purpose to sabotage the competition. Further
> speculation can be done silently with the phrase
> cui bono.

Someone can feel free to correct me, but last I knew, the UP only eases throttle restrictions on certain Z trains during the holiday season.

If the customer is unwilling to pay a surcharge for 70-80 mph service, then you deliver the least service you can get away with...