Western Railroad Discussion > Power outages and the railroads

Had a couple of lengthy power outages in Lovelock, NV (UPRR Overland MP344) recently.  

Noticed the UPRR signals and crossing gates working fine but it did raise a question or two.  

Are all signals and crossing gates still on back-up batteries and if so how long can they last?

There are some pretty serious electrical connections around the trackside signal boxes due to PTC. 

Seems there's a lot of things that need power including remote switches.  It doesn't seem batteries can last very long and the railroad must need a lot of them.  

In extended power outages with more things falling off-line what would be the different railroads way of handling their trains? Track Warrants?

Still a little clueless about the power sources for all the stuff a railroad uses.  Used to have a dozen wires on poles out here but that we know is no more.  

Thanks!

Chuck 

You might notice propane tanks for switch heaters and backup generation. Most have solar collectors since the PTC equipment went in. Some areas also have wind generators in addition to the solar equipment. The batteries can also last multiple days.

Railroad signals have operated on battery power since the beginning. Commercial and now solar power just runs the trickle battery charger which keeps the batteries topped up.
The batteries are supposed to be good for a minimum of eight hours of operation but depending how much the equipment is used they will probably last longer like maybe 12 to 18 hours or more.

Say the power was out state-wide Nevada for a week.  

How would the UPRR handle such a situation?

Chuck

RailDawg Wrote:
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> Say the power was out state-wide Nevada for a
> week.  
>
> How would the UPRR handle such a situation?
>
> Chuck

Run trains through Oregon and Arizona.

back east after hurricanes and stuff MOW guys would use portable generators , at each crossing,  but they would get stolen some times

they may run on t/o instead of signals?

Agree, lots of portable generators and Signal Maintainers with gas cans.

Some of the remote locations have solar but those are usually very remote. All the modern requirements for data means lots of wattage in the signal cottage behind the scenes.

This is why the question came up aren't the railroads using quite a bit of power trackside these days? 

Batteries do have their limitations.  

Chuck 

Not sure what the question really is. Yes they are using more electrical power service drops and also adding their own back up batteries and generators, the issue becomes obvious during heavy storms and probably during widespread earthquake damage.

Yes the grade crossings run on back up batteries for quite a few hours, during wide spread power outages the Signal Maintainers set up small generators to recharge the batteries and try to prevent them from being stolen.

There's been some big storms and extended power outages in far northern California, often trees falling into commercial power lines causing extended power outages, measured in days. The RR has policies about stopping at all grade crossings to prevent collisions. at times they will fleet trains in one direction so that track switches do not need to be thrown or shoveled out. During those times the bigger problem was getting crews from their homes or the hotel to the crew change. Notice some crews or signal maintainers would stay on duty for extended amounts of time to prevent highway travel, others would hyrail to unaffected areas to find lodging. There's also the snow bus idea to shuttle by rail to unaffected areas, in the past a number of locations would use the Flanger equipment to avoid highway travel, and so on.

That leads to that observation of when the highways go down the RR goes down too. It's all connected. At some point they wait until the storm passes, it's that simple.

+ power availability also plays into a number of other industries and activities. there have been a number of back up schemes and also data Network resiliency contingencies. At the far end of all those contingency charts is the hunker down and don't make it worse option.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/09/25 08:18 by TCnR.

dan Wrote:
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>
> they may run on t/o instead of signals?

???  Trip Optimizer is still based on signal indication.  

Typhoon Wrote:
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> dan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > they may run on t/o instead of signals?
>
> ???  Trip Optimizer is still based on signal
> indication.  Trip Optimizer doesn't care about the siganls....unless PTC informs it...if it runs apart from PTC it will run until you stop it. If it's not being inoformed by PTC it will ask you how each switch you approach is lined but it has no enforcement ability. 

Typhoon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > they may run on t/o instead of signals?
>
> ???  Trip Optimizer is still based on signal
> indication.  

I figured "t/o" meant "train orders" (rather than signal indication and PTC) in this context.

RailDawg Wrote:
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> This is why the question came up aren't the
> railroads using quite a bit of power trackside
> these days? 
>
> Batteries do have their limitations.  
>
> Chuck 

This is why you see a lot of solar panels next to signal installations these days. Because even on a cloudy day they make some power. And a trickle battery charger doesn't use that much if the batteries are charged already. And the idea is to not let them get fully discharged. Oh and the batteries we're talking about here are not your usual car, truck or even deep cycle boat battery. They're specialized batteries designed for this use and are used for railroad signals, cell towers and telephone equipment.

Part of regular testing is testing the batteries. Take the voltages with the main feed still on, shut the main feed off "for a sufficient amount of time" (interpretation of "sufficient" varies), let the equipment at a location operate a few times on battery power, then take a new voltage reading. How much your voltage has dropped will tell you how healthy your batteries are and if any have to be replaced. These values are recorded on a sheet that typically goes back a few years, so you can compare battery performance to historic data.

Like others have said, when power goes out you hook generators up to the service panel. Make sure you bring plenty of chains and locks. 

The railroad is considered "critical infrastructure" by the power companies, so it gets priority service. I can't imagine what being nonpriority looks like, because usually it still takes the better part of a day for the utility company to send out a tech. 

Are there things that run on AC power with signaling like PTC?

Wasn't everything DC for a long time?

If you put your ear on a signal box out here there is a deep hum coming from it.  Sounds like a lot of power being used.  

Chuck 

The topic of power back up systems is included in most related Technical Programs. it had been part of the HAM tests, it is part of Ground station licenses. Airframe and Power Plant guys know all this stuff, most Military folks have a good idea what goes on. It's a much bigger profession than just the battery back up under the desk.

During an Insurance or Quality program inspection the power back up systems are a significant part of the inspections. It would not be something for a restauraunt or storefront but would be an option for a custom installation.

The power system at a industrial installation has to provide power but also protect againest power surges and lightning strikes. Most of the concepts are handed down from National Defense System designs and any number of flow down requirements. For a RR, all sorts of Federal Inspections, State and Local requirements, permits and dog catcher fees.

Individual functions like switch heaters or PTC systems would be in seperate boxes or cabinets including computers or controllers, modems, RF equipment etc. generally in a modular design for ease of installation. They would be hard wired to an internal power buss, fuses, circuit breakers, surge components, security devices all part of the system design. It's an industry by itself, they have their own magazines, job listings, design requirements and so on.

pbouzide Wrote:
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> Typhoon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > dan Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > >
> > > they may run on t/o instead of signals?
> >
> > ???  Trip Optimizer is still based on signal
> > indication.  
>
> I figured "t/o" meant "train orders" (rather than
> signal indication and PTC) in this context.

Makes sense I guess.  If you say TO to any current railroader, train orders will not be the first thought.  

RailDawg Wrote:
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> Are there things that run on AC power with
> signaling like PTC?
>
> Wasn't everything DC for a long time?
>
> If you put your ear on a signal box out here there
> is a deep hum coming from it.  Sounds like a lot
> of power being used.  
>
> Chuck 

Everything is still DC. AC comes in from the main feed into recifiers that convert it into DC and trickle charge the batteries. That's generally the humming noise you hear. 

suvart Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RailDawg Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Are there things that run on AC power with
> > signaling like PTC?
> >
> > Wasn't everything DC for a long time?
> >
> > If you put your ear on a signal box out here
> there
> > is a deep hum coming from it.  Sounds like a
> lot
> > of power being used.  
> >
> > Chuck 
>
> Everything is still DC. AC comes in from the main
> feed into recifiers that convert it into DC and
> trickle charge the batteries. That's generally the
> humming noise you hear. 

And if there are solar panels they produce DC power which can go directly to the trickle charger.