Western Railroad Discussion > Replacing Older Local/Road Switcher Units

Conductor I was working with yesterday brought up an interesting observation: When all of the 2nd generation units that are mainly used nowadays for local/road switcher service, such as SD40s, GP38s, GP40s, etc, begin to wear out, what will the railroads do to replace them? Is there any chance that the railroads will opt to have EMD build new general-purpose units to specifications from the '70s, when most of those units were originally built, or will they have to accept whatever new products are coming out from the locomotive builders at the time of purchase e.g., could UP request that EMD build 100 SD40-2 (or 3 model) units to '70s specs or would that not be possible? I realize that emission-related controls would also come into play here, but for the sake of argument, would it be possible to have a locomotive manufacturer build good, reliable new units (with conventional cabs) based on the older SD40 model, if such an order were placed?

Reason I ask is because of the simple fact that the newer mainline units are just plain "lousy" for switching, especially the newer GEs, which is why I didn't mention their products above. Give me a good 'ol SD40 any day over one of the newer wide-cab units. So was wondering what the railroads will do to replace their older units as they begin to wear out. I guess they could also just keep rebuilding them or buying rebuilt units like those that come out of places like the rebuild facility in Boise, ID, as it seems like there are plenty of shops around that do that kind of work.

As an aside, even the newer SD70 models like UP is buying are not all that impressive for switching, as they take forever to load up - not even close to an old SD40-2 from 1980 or so performance-wise. And don't get me going on the SD90s - not even close!

Rebuilding is how Norfolk Southern has been handling this situation of late -- converting old GP38s and GP50s into GP38-3's at Altoona.

The other solution that Class I's have been using is to get rid of as much branch mileage as possible, which reduces their need for four-axle power. It's pretty amazing to see B40-8's in switcher service, but not that unusual any more (see previous thread about this subject).

Look fr a new generation of epa compliant 4 axle units. Most likely in the 2000 hp range.

Meanwhile even the gp 60s will work and can be made to comply with epa tier two requirements. But, not the GP 50 series. Expect lots of GP 38 & 40 rebuilds in the mean time. Look how long the
gp and sd 9s have survived with rebuilds.

mdo

Doesnt EMD and MPI have a partnership to build new switchers and road switchers.

I think Mike is right on. M-K or Alstom are going to get plenty of orders to rebuild the old four axle locomotives. EMD and GE have made it clear that they are out of the four axle business for now.

pal77 Wrote:
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> Doesnt EMD and MPI have a partnership to build new
> switchers and road switchers.


Yeah, what 'bout the GP20D ??

http://www.gmemd.com/en/locomotive/switcher/gp20d/

~ ~ ~

-al likes the way they look !!

boomer Wrote:
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> Conductor I was working with yesterday brought up
> an interesting observation: When all of the 2nd
> generation units that are mainly used nowadays for
> local/road switcher service, such as SD40s, GP38s,
> GP40s, etc, begin to wear out, what will the
> railroads do to replace them?

They'll put four axle trucks on wornout GE dash-9's and call em' a road switcher.

Jon

The low-HP market of the future will likely belong to products like the hybrid and the truck-engine switcher which UP is building. Power plants based on truck engine technology don't need large 5-10 ton overhead cranes to replace large engine components.

boomer Wrote:
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> Is there any chance
> that the railroads will opt to have EMD build new
> general-purpose units to specifications from the
> '70s, when most of those units were originally
> built, or will they have to accept whatever new
> products are coming out from the locomotive
> builders at the time of purchase e.g., could UP
> request that EMD build 100 SD40-2 (or 3 model)
> units to '70s specs or would that not be possible?

Since most European railway locomotives are custom-designed, and EMD does a considerable amount of export business, I think the issue isn't whether EMD will build it if requested, it's whether a major railroad is willing to put up the cash to develop a new locomotive, and pay for the factory to be able to build the locomotives (tooling, machines, training, etc.)

Amtrak did it with the "Genesis" locomotives. Did BN inspire the BL20-2 locomotive (that turned out to be a flop, because the per-unit cost was too high in comparison with the GP39 rebuild project?)

How much of an older unit can they "rebuild" and still have it be an older unit that falls under the older regs? What do they have to keep? Just the frame?

Craig

cpn Wrote:
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> How much of an older unit can they "rebuild" and
> still have it be an older unit that falls under
> the older regs? What do they have to keep? Just
> the frame?
>
> Craig

It depends upon how many parts are re-used. If the rebuilt locomotive is more than 25 per cent, by value of the parts, "previously used parts," (quotations enclose phrases from the EPA rule) then it's a "remanufactured" unit and it can be a Tier 0 locomotive. If it's less than 25 per cent, it's a "freshly manufactured" locomotive, and it has to be (in 2005) a Tier 2 locomotive. When you think about it, determining that 25 per cent is likely to be an accounting nightmare.

A Tier 2 compliant 645!

I presume they'll keep rebuilding all of this stuff for the foreseeable, until the blocks are totally shot. The other part that is a key is the frame. Fatigue would probably be the main problem, you could probably repair cracks and stuff or replace with a welded caating, maybe.

Kennedy

HaggisKennedy Wrote:
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> A Tier 2 compliant 645!

Well, stranger things have happened, but I don't know of any Tier 2 645's available right now. A couple of people have government grants to develop one, though.

> I presume they'll keep rebuilding all of this
> stuff for the foreseeable, until the blocks are
> totally shot. The other part that is a key is the
> frame. Fatigue would probably be the main
> problem, you could probably repair cracks and
> stuff or replace with a welded caating, maybe.
>
> Kennedy

There's really no such thing as a "totally shot" 645 crankcase. It's a welded steel fabrication, so major damage (e.g. from a thrown rod) can be cut out and new parts welded in, worn spots can be built up with weld, and the crankcase furnaced and remachined. EMD does it (Historically, did it themselves; maybe it's farmed out now), and such organizations as VMV do it too. The repairability of the components is one of the reasons that old EMD's just keep soldiering on.

You guys certainly know your stuff when it comes to questions like the one I posed - very informative replies - thanks for the help.

With the majority of new power purchased by the larger railroads being six axel units scarcity of smaller four axel power is a problem. I remember working the Riverside local out of West Colton, CA on duty at 0700. We had to wait until 1300 to acquire one four axel unit to go out on the branch. They cut out the 9712 from an incomming consist.
I suggested they may be able to "short lease" a small unit from the Orange Empire Trolley Museum while we waited. This was back in 1997.

I'm not familiar with the 645 block, hence my original comment. But, in the case you speak of, then there could really be no end to the 645 family. As long as you can constantly rebuild it, it'll never see the end, unless emissions becomes an issue.

Kennedy

mdo stated that GP and SD9's still operate after upgrading. Remember, BNSF's fleet of SD9's are not all rebuilt. Only about a half dozen have been totally rebuilt, all the rest have only had overhauls.

As for the BL20-2, I wonder why EMD failed with these units and MK built a very similiar unit in the BN GP28M's (1500-1539) and GP28M (1590-1599) that turned out to be good motors, all built on GP5,GP9 and GP18 frames just like the BL20-2.

Regards
Q-GP30

Another solution is to require that customers rebuild their spot tracks to accommodate six-axle units much like UP is doing.