Western Railroad Discussion > UP heritage units - who cares?

I find all this goo-goo'ing over these "heritage" units rather amusing. However, I am personally not amused with what UP has done (just my opinion).

First, if they were true "heritage" units, why weren't they simply painted to reflect the original railroad paint scheme in effect at the time UP took the railroad over. That's not to say I don't necessarily like the appearance of the stylised version exhibited here but to me it's not true "heritage" (is UP embarassed about SP, C&NW, MP, WP, etc.).

However, who benefits by all this hoopla? Are the investors on Wall Street suddenly going to gobble up all the UP stock because UP decided to paint a few units in a stylized "heritage" scheme? Are all the shippers suddenly going to forgive UP for their extremely poor service? And are all the UP employees going to suddenly get a warm, fuzzy feeling about the UP and forget about what a pathetic (at times) railroad this is to work for?

Good old "jbwest" made a post comparing UP and BNSF over the last ten years as far as stock market performance is concerned. Here's the link for anybody who missed it (if I did it right):

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,969153

Now is it only me who notices that while BNSF has been busy running a railroad and not worrying about "flags" and "heritage units" they have been silently doubling their worth on Wall Street. Good old UP is stuck right where they were 10 years ago on Wall Street (or really close to it based on the chart). Maybe UP should stop worrying about "flags", "heritage units", and all kinds of other stUPid stuff that has nothing to do with railroading and get back to doing what UP should be doing - running a railroad! And yes, I do have a financial stake as I am both an employee of one and a stock holder of both.

While I do not work for BNSF I have made trips over BNSF tracks. I don't know if what I see out here is the way it is everywhere on BNSF but they maintain their plant and actually want to run a railroad - properly! And from talking with BNSF employees around here they have much more respect for their employer, and their employer seems to have more respect for them, than most UP people have for theirs. Basically BNSF actually runs a railroad while UP only wants to play trains.

OK, that's my 2-cents for the day. I don't care who agrees with me (perhaps nobody but I don't care) or not but I said what I wanted to. Now everybody can go back to drooling over these pseudo heritage units and hopefully enjoy the day.

R.B.

Railbaron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First, if they were true "heritage" units, why
> weren't they simply painted to reflect the
> original railroad paint scheme in effect at the
> time UP took the railroad over. That's not to say
> I don't necessarily like the appearance of the
> stylised version exhibited here but to me it's not
> true "heritage" (is UP embarassed about SP,
> C&NW, MP, WP, etc.).
>
> However, who benefits by all this hoopla? Are the
> investors on Wall Street suddenly going to gobble
> up all the UP stock because UP decided to paint a
> few units in a stylized "heritage" scheme? Are all
> the shippers suddenly going to forgive UP for
> their extremely poor service? And are all the UP
> employees going to suddenly get a warm, fuzzy
> feeling about the UP and forget about what a
> pathetic (at times) railroad this is to work for?
>
> Now is it only me who notices that while BNSF has
> been busy running a railroad and not worrying
> about "flags" and "heritage units" they have been
> silently doubling their worth on Wall Street. Good
> old UP is stuck right where they were 10 years ago
> on Wall Street (or really close to it based on the
> chart). Maybe UP should stop worrying about
> "flags", "heritage units", and all kinds of other
> stUPid stuff that has nothing to do with
> railroading and get back to doing what UP should
> be doing - running a railroad! And yes, I do have
> a financial stake as I am both an employee of one
> and a stock holder of both.
>
> While I do not work for BNSF I have made trips
> over BNSF tracks. I don't know if what I see out
> here is the way it is everywhere on BNSF but they
> maintain their plant and actually want to run a
> railroad - properly! And from talking with BNSF
> employees around here they have much more respect
> for their employer, and their employer seems to
> have more respect for them, than most UP people
> have for theirs. Basically BNSF actually runs a
> railroad while UP only wants to play trains.
> R.B.
>
I CARE!!! (You asked who cares?) I do!!!

You made some interesting points. On previous threads, others as well as myself have discussed this. As you pointed out, so did J.B.West.

The stock market and investors are a fickle people who want to see railroads making visible statements. I've already noted how BNSF in changing it's name and image made a significant splash on the stock market. UP's action as unveiled today will do the same. Obviously, brokers, investors and stockholders will not gooble up all the available stocks. However, the stocks purchased may indeed give UP the cash flow needed for certain captial expenditures.

These units would have come out in the Armour Yellow as part of the delivery agreement. Why not celebrate the railroad heritage? We can rue the day or enjoy it. I've choosen to enjoy it.

Kudos to UP, JEB and all the hard working stiffs. Management, thanks for signing off.

RickH

For years, some of the more interesting railroads from an operational and equipment perspective were those that weren't making their stock holders happy. Milwaukee Road, SP, CNW just for starters. Thank heavens that the most important thing in life isn't the stockholders. UP wants to paint up some units in another color scheme? Good for them (I'm not much of a UP fan except for their steam program). Help the stockholders? Don't give a plug nickel.

Don Hall
Yreka, CA

---

I care and let me tell you why. Some very good friends of mine spent time coordinating this event and putting together the schemes for the Heritage Units. Not everything can be measured in dollars and cents. The word from here is good job, UP, and thanks for all the work on the Heritage program.

Jim Burrill

Ok, where did everybody else go? I am certain there were other responses here on this thread.

Don Hall, I like what you had to say about stock holders and SP & so on. I particularly appreciate the picture of my favorite heritage railroad. Thanks.

May I point out. As you said, the former railroads ie., SP indeed were not pleasing the stockholders. This is precisely why investors stopped investing and purchasing the stock of these railroads. They needed returns for their monies and started looking for other investments. Desperate, capital expenditures had to be put off.

My two cents. I CARE!!!

RickH

Holy screaming eagle batman, I love them the combined early and later versions, of both roads paint jobs. who designed them? wish UP would go back to silver trucks however..

RickH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The stock market and investors are a fickle people
> who want to see railroads making visible
> statements. I've already noted how BNSF in
> changing it's name and image made a significant
> splash on the stock market. UP's action as
> unveiled today will do the same.

I have to respectfully disagree. Most of the stock in large, publicly-traded companies like railroads is held by institutional investors such as mutual funds, insurance companies, pension funds, etc., who have a cursory understanding of the business of railroading and are not even aware of, much less influenced by, things like how a railroad paints its locomotives.

These people depend for their information in large part on Wall Street equity research analysts at firms like Bear Stearns, JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley, etc. These analysts are industry specialists who are paid to understand the business but whose focus is on earnings and return on invested capital. They, too, are unlikely to be influenced by how a railroad paints its locomotives.

I think image does count, but mainly with a railroad's employees and customers (and with the general public, too) and much less so with its investors. The thing that puzzles me about UP is how they carefully cultivate their image with projects like this, and yet at the same time allow many of their U.S.-flag-painted units to run around with a thick layer of grime.

Tom Murray
Martinez, CA

http://tmrail.com

A point of clarification on my original post (I didn’t want to add this to that as it might get overlooked).

I personally don’t care one way or another what color or paint scheme UP decides to paint any unit. It’s their money, their company, their decision, and they can do what they want. And certainly something other than “Armour Yellow” and “Harbor Mist Gray” will be a welcome sight in this sea of yellow (both dirty and clean). While I personally would have “officially” preferred to see true “heritage” units, I must admit these don’t look that bad (only my opinion).

What I am talking about is that for the last few days there have been more threads and posts speculating what these units might be and what schemes they might have than I can count. From the railfan community’s standpoint these might very well be considered “awesome” by some and a disgrace (for failing to reflect the true heritage of the original railroads) by others. And even I have to admit they are not as bad as I expected but definitely not what I would have preferred. I’m old enough to have personally photographed all these roads in their original state of independence and would have preferred UP to have honored these fallen flags with true representations of their heritage.

The point is that a few years ago UP came out with “flag units”. Nothing changed after they did so. Shippers still got poor service, employees still got treated like crap, and UP’s stock price didn’t skyrocket. In fact for those who don’t remember UP even started running some business off in an attempt to improve operations, which I don’t see as really working (I’m still working 12-hours many trips over a territory that I used to work 8-10 hours on with the SP).

Now we come out with these “heritage” units. I seriously doubt things will suddenly change in the real world just because UP now has a few “heritage” units floating around. And how long do you suppose these units will stay clean before they will blend in with the rest of the system and become the disgusting, dirty units that everyone on Trainorders will then vilify UP for not keeping clean (remember the never ending posts about the flag units being dirty?).

My point, which I evidently didn’t get across, was that perhaps instead of playing trains out here maybe Omaha should actually want to run a railroad and not worry about “appearance”. Just checking their coveted “velocity”, which UP loves to talk about, I see it’s down to 15.9 mph, which is lower than it has been in a while. In fact on July 25th UP announced they were lowering their “key measures” from 13 down to just 7, which I assume was so they could make the numbers look better for Wall Street.

I doubt UPS, General Motors, Weyerhaeuser Lumber, Dow Chemical, plus the hundreds of other smaller shippers are going to care about what color UP’s engines are. I’m sure all they want is a company that will provide service efficiently and at a reasonable price. And while there might be a blip on Wall Street on Monday, under that pretty paint is the same old UP doing business the same old way with little regards to customer service or employee satisfaction alike.

Now I have a vested interest in seeing UP do good. I am an employee, I am a stockholder, and I am a railfan. Contrary to what my posts usually come across as, I want UP to do good and be successful. But Omaha appears to be only concerned with the frosting on the cake and not how the cake comes out. Instead of worrying about “rights” to using company logos and painting pretty engines, why can’t Omaha instead direct their efforts to finding faults in their operating plan and get back to running an efficient railroad that shippers want to deal with and employees are proud to work for (I hear the “original” UP – pre-MoPac – was indeed just that kind of railroad).

So noted Tom, and Railbaron thanks for your response.

Allow me to respond: I am a stockholder, one of many individuals that hold stock in UP. I can assure you this is extremely important to me.

We do share something in common. UP seems to have lost it's pride when it comes to keeping their motors washed and shiny. They are looking more like the old SP. Time to wash them haulers and shine up those wheels.

Top priority, needs to be getting the trains rolling and in a timely fashion. To eliminate crews going dead and having to tie up trains out in no man's land. Scheduling of trains, something AT&SF, SP and the old UP did successfully may (as in might be) the answer. Let's get back to business and move away from the MoP way of doing things.

(Expletives) do I like those heritage units? YES!!!!

RickH

Very well said on both of your postings Railbaron. I could not agree with you more. I must unfortunately say that I'm afraid you're wasting your breath. I doubt if the points you were trying to make and get across will ever be fully understood in this forum.

Regarding the "hertiage" units.....

I agree again with Railbaron. I guess they're better than nothing, but I don't consider them true heritage units. In fact, anything but.

The WP one I can live with. I actually think it is kind of attractive. The colors blend well together, and the large herald does look nice. The MP one does not impress me at all. The colors really don't complment one another all that well, don't blend that well either, and in the sunlight the screaming eagle appears to almost disappear into that funky design / striping on the hood sides.

This of course is just MHO, and I really don't care to and won't respond to any flames about what an idiot I am for having said opinions.

Going back now to looking at and drolling over my slides of the real WP and MP when they were cool little railroads and before they were assimilated by "The Borg".

Have a nice day everyone,

Soo Line Hoghead

Railbaron wrote, "I find all this goo-goo'ing over these "heritage" units rather amusing."

Amen! It wasn't too long ago that this board was FILLED with posts titled 'Got my 1st set of wings!!!!!' It went on and on, and then on some more... until the flags started appearing. Then the same thing: people went nuts.

Yes, the units are unique and attractive. Yes, it's nice the UP made the effort. Yes, it may boast their image with the public and employees. And yes, ANYTHING to break-up the monotonous parade of yellow is a welcome sight.

I guess we should let foamers foam. Eventually the hype will subside as we all breathlessly await the next exciting new development from Omaha. In the meantime, if I ever do photograph these units, I'll probably title the slide with the same caption I used on my '1st wings' shot: BFD...

"Everybody's talkin' 'bout the new units
Funny, but it's still all crap to me"

Gosh almighty. Some of you sound like my great granddad and great uncle. To quote them, "Dam railfans, always getting in the way". They were rails who could hardly tolerate what we refer to as "Foamers". "Always out there standing on the (expletive I can't repeat here) TRACKS", they would say in obvious anger. This thread is beginning to sound like old times. Thanks for keying memories of times past. Those memories are of good times, when my rail family would sit around swapping war stories. "Well, I don't give a r@ts a$$ about" this or that or whatever it was... I always thought they were just venting their anger.

It's ok for you to share your opinion and share it here on line. Maybe more then others I do understand where you are coming from. My family, rails/hogheads saw it pretty much as SooLineHogHead and Railbaron. It was nothing more then just a job. No glamour, no recognition, no fun, no time with the family, no life.

I believe someone in the family called the negative neds "Derailers". She would say "Oh you bunch of derailers" and grin. This time around, I hope you won't mind if I don't join in with the derailers.

I think dan, in a previous thread, said what I feel, best "Holy screaming eagle..." May I change that to "Holy Flying Eagle"?

Have fun.

RickH

Kudos to UP and the people who designed those paint schemes. Truly awesome, modern take on a classic subject.

I wonder what B&O or ACL passenger colors would look like all jazzed up in the same fashion.

Railbaron Wrote:

> First, if they were true "heritage" units, why
> weren't they simply painted to reflect the
> original railroad paint scheme in effect at the
> time UP took the railroad over. That's not to say
> I don't necessarily like the appearance of the
> stylised version exhibited here but to me it's not
> true "heritage" (is UP embarassed about SP,
> C&NW, MP, WP, etc.).

Because let's face it -- the early 80's MP and WP paint schemes were boring. They were then, and they would be now. Your own nostalgia taints your view of these things.

Whether or not the application is to your taste, to say that these units do not display MP or WP heritage or that UP is somehow ashamed of that heritage is completely daft.

> Now is it only me who notices that while BNSF has
> been busy running a railroad and not worrying
> about "flags" and "heritage units" they have been
> silently doubling their worth on Wall Street.

What does BNSF itself call its flashy, bold, and very expensive to apply green/orange/yellow scheme that is currently running around on a thousand locomotives or more? "Heritage".

> Maybe UP should stop worrying about
> "flags", "heritage units", and all kinds of other
> stUPid stuff that has nothing to do with
> railroading and get back to doing what UP should
> be doing - running a railroad! And yes, I do have
> a financial stake as I am both an employee of one
> and a stock holder of both.

You seem to think that all of Omaha HQ took a day off to work on this project, that this has drained any resources from the company at all. People seem to forget that a railroad is not a single entity. It does not think with one mind, it does not have the same priorities or abilities throughout. What does all of this *really* cost UP? Next to nothing.

UP spending too much time and money on appearance? Have you actually *seen* a Union Pacific train lately?

And if you truly believe that the bottom line is all that really matters, thank you for helping to make this sterile, monotonous, greed-ridden, empty, cultureless society what it is today. Meanwhile, I'm going to enjoy the breath of fresh air these units provide in the thought that someone, somewhere in Union Pacific doesn't believe that money is everything.

~~Pete

as a holder of 300 shares of UP stock, I CARE!!!


these new units are excellent and they will bring some good press to the railroad.

Pete,

Regarding the last paragraph of your response to Railbaron, I must ask..... HUH?????

In corporate America, whether you are talking about railroads or any other industry, the "bottom line" IS what matters!!! Nothing but.

You may think that from your railfan perpsective these units are "a breath of fresh air", and that's your right to think that, but they are a publicity tool, nothing more and nothing less. The UPRR obviously thought that the benefits of painting them (i.e., the $$$) would outweigh the costs (i.e., the $$$).
If you think for one second that the folks in Omaha aren't concerned about money or the bottom line, whether it be on this project or anything else related to their business, then you need to come in out of the sun for awhile.

SLH




Derecho Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Railbaron Wrote:
>
> > First, if they were true "heritage" units,
> why
> > weren't they simply painted to reflect the
> > original railroad paint scheme in effect at
> the
> > time UP took the railroad over. That's not to
> say
> > I don't necessarily like the appearance of
> the
> > stylised version exhibited here but to me
> it's not
> > true "heritage" (is UP embarassed about SP,
> > C&NW, MP, WP, etc.).
>
> Because let's face it -- the early 80's MP and WP
> paint schemes were boring. They were then, and
> they would be now. Your own nostalgia taints your
> view of these things.
>
> Whether or not the application is to your taste,
> to say that these units do not display MP or WP
> heritage or that UP is somehow ashamed of that
> heritage is completely daft.
>
> > Now is it only me who notices that while BNSF
> has
> > been busy running a railroad and not
> worrying
> > about "flags" and "heritage units" they have
> been
> > silently doubling their worth on Wall
> Street.
>
> What does BNSF itself call its flashy, bold, and
> very expensive to apply green/orange/yellow scheme
> that is currently running around on a thousand
> locomotives or more? "Heritage".
>
> > Maybe UP should stop worrying about
> > "flags", "heritage units", and all kinds of
> other
> > stUPid stuff that has nothing to do with
> > railroading and get back to doing what UP
> should
> > be doing - running a railroad! And yes, I do
> have
> > a financial stake as I am both an employee of
> one
> > and a stock holder of both.
>
> You seem to think that all of Omaha HQ took a day
> off to work on this project, that this has drained
> any resources from the company at all. People
> seem to forget that a railroad is not a single
> entity. It does not think with one mind, it does
> not have the same priorities or abilities
> throughout. What does all of this *really* cost
> UP? Next to nothing.
>
> UP spending too much time and money on appearance?
> Have you actually *seen* a Union Pacific train
> lately?
>
> And if you truly believe that the bottom line is
> all that really matters, thank you for helping to
> make this sterile, monotonous, greed-ridden,
> empty, cultureless society what it is today.
> Meanwhile, I'm going to enjoy the breath of fresh
> air these units provide in the thought that
> someone, somewhere in Union Pacific doesn't
> believe that money is everything.
>
> ~~Pete

Before I go any further, and to appease those who don't bother to actually read what I wrote earlier, I couldn't care less what UP does as far as painting these units or any other units. Indeed cost is minimal and if it makes somebody in Omaha feel good, go for it. In fact I even posted that I kind of liked the paint schemes in my original post, if people would actually read what I wrote. However, my personal preference would have been to recreate a true "heritage" paint scheme for each of the original roads and actually have their proper paint schemes depicted rather than a stylized version.

This whole thread was never about whether somebody likes or dislikes the paint job but rather to point out that maybe UP should do more to improve the company value and the operation of the railroad rather than simply put on a show. Those who want to argue over whether the paint job is good or bad should go to one of the other threads for that.

The main point that I tried to make was that while UP is painting these units up all nice and pretty, the UP has many serious operational problems that they just don't seem to grasp. You can dress a pig up as pretty as you want but it's still going to be a pig.

The bottom line is that I doubt the investment community, which is where UP acquires much of its financing for projects from, is going to care one bit what a couple of units look like. The railfan community might love them but how many railfans own thousands, or even hundreds, of shares of UP stock, thus helping the company grow. No, I think UP should be spending more time improving the bottom line and increasing the value of the company rather than putting a show on.

As far as this being a great publicity event; how long will this last? The “flag units” were a great publicity event and in no time most of those units have become disgusting, filthy units (boy, the threads about that went on and on). To me those “flag units” are a disgrace to me as an American as it makes Union Pacific appear they have no respect for the American flag, and presumably America itself. For those Americans who respect the flag and what it stands for I wonder what they must think of the UP. BTW, isn’t the proper etiquette for a “soiled” American flag to destroy it “in a dignified manner” (from the American Legion code).

Now we have these new “heritage” units running around. I am going to be very interested how long it takes before the membership of T.O. starts going ballistic over these units becoming filthy, as I’m sure will happen.

Oh yeah, to “Pete”, I see a LOT of UP trains. In fact I’ll most likely being seeing one again this afternoon before you have a chance to go to bed. I also see the ineptitude of a lot of UP’s management that has created such a poorly run railroad. Believe me, these pretty paint jobs won’t improve the railroad from either an operational or financial standpoint.

Happy railfanning everybody, I have to get ready to do duty to God and UP (or is that the same thing).

Just in case, I missed it. I have read and re-read your post here at least four times. That goes for our SooHogger friend. Noted and as I said earlier, appreciated. I didn't respond to all the points you made as I am in like mind. Where I thought we disagreed I added my two cents.

If the point you are making is that these new units will not change the operations of the railroad. You would be correct. Obviously, we both agree that UP's, management has got to get it together. That was easy enough to write.

My point in all of this: The probability of attracting individual investors (such as myself) to increase the cash flow providing hard cold cash for capital infrastruture improvements and equipment. Alone, this won't solve the operations problems. However, it would be a step in the right direction.

I hope you enjoyed my come backs or at least tolerated them.

Thanks for sharing here and that goes for everyone who has posted.

I hate the negative fallout here on TO. I grew-up with it. As I shared in a previous post. All the yammering turned me against working for the railroads. A decision, I will regret to my grave.

RickH "I Care" Actually...I believe you care, too. It oozes out.

Same effect on the bottom line. So are you arguing that UP shouldn't give a penny to the United Way or any other charity? Just a different form of PR, advertising, and goodwill (which, BTW, is an accounting term.) You really think that if they didn't spend any time and money on these units that operations would have improved? Highly doubtful, we are talking about 2 different issues and economies of scale. Companies can walk and chew gum, or perhaps repeatedly stumble and chew gum, at the same time. If there is a problem, the gum is immaterial to solving it.

I thought I was done with this thread unitl...yikes.

DidlySquat, after reading some of your other threads I know we are on the same page. You lost me on this one. This surfer dude gum stuff...well...try some barstool hillbillie english. Maybe then I will understand.

Who came first the person, railroad or the gum? Another thread gone a-muck. It's satire, don't take it serious.

Bottom line. I think you are saying it doesn't cost anymore to paint the heritage units then it does to paint the "Flag" units. True or false?

Ok, I got to quit. This has been a interesting discussion. Brought back memories. I got to quit.

This is one thread where I have seen perhaps a dozen posts show-up and promptly disappear. Gosh almighty...magic!

Thanks again for the fun.

RickH Love those heritage units. Yes, this stock holder CARES!!CARES!!CARES Out of here!