Steam & Excursion > NYC 3001

So, call me skeptical of this discussion below. Some folks are led to believe that not one but two organizations, each with $1 million to spend on a steam locomotive restoration project and willing to pay $5k per year to the city in rent AND offer the engine time back in Elkhart, are out there bidding against each other. I don't even know one such organization that can promise that with a straight face, much less two. But if someone can name names, I'd consider this to be legit. Right now, it has no credibility.
Jim Wrinn
jwrinn@trainsmag.com

I will second Jim's opinion stated above! I don't know of a single "steam contractor" that could completely re-build that 3001, for "only" one million dollars.

Then factor in; 1) what would it pull?, 2) where would it be able to operate? (certainly NOT CSX, UP, NS, or CN), and 3) how would liability insurance be obtained and how much would it cost?

Until the Elkart Mayor's office releases more factual information concerning the parties/contractors "bidding" on this circus, it is all BS in my opinion.

I've refused to believe any of this until I see some credible sources. I don't consider a quote from a museum volunteer a "credible" source.

Unfortunately, the local media has picked up things, which makes everyone in the industry look bad. When I was home for Christmas, I had to hear people talk about the local newspaper articles.

Anyone who has attempted to ship a passenger car over a Class 1 in the last 10 years, will agree that this a railfans dream at best.

Someone from Elkhart needs to step up and put an end to this nonsense (or clarify things).

Or we could just wait and see. If it happens it happens, if not.....nothing has changed.

I think a more realistic project would be to get a shelter erected over 3001 to get it out of the weather. Maybe even restore the jacketing.

My impression was that the mayor is not interested.

I have a bid in on the NYC Hudson which is hidden in the desert along with all the stored airplanes. Should be hearing something any day now..........

I have two NYC Mohawks hidden on some unreachable FJ&G rails near where I grew up, I have been hoping I could get 1 Million for both to restore, there is a bridge near here that could also be sold.

Your Mohawks, while lovely machines, are a bit of a pain in the neck for me as I have to get them switched out of the way every time I take my hidden Pennsy T1 4-4-4-4 duplex out of its "secure undisclosed location".

Regardless of whether the the mayor of Elkhart is truly interested in restoring and operating the Mohawk, you have to agree, that a lot of news, thought and publicity has been given to this stagnant locomotive. Maybe SOMEONE or some GROUP out there, reading about the engine, will decide to come forward. Just about every restored locomotive started its new life with a few guys talking and daydreaming about restoration. It IS the right engine...the closest thing you will ever see from the front, that looks like a Hudson. Now, will the right group come forward with a plan and proposal? I hope so...

..Or maybe this is just an elaborate ploy by the city and the museum to get exposure, people talking about visiting Elkhart, tourist dollars flowing, all by making nothing more than chatter. Seems to be a winning plan so far...

Ah, but we can dream, can't we?

If I were to restore an engine, based on the talk that
surrounds such an endeavor as witness both here and
several other restoration attempts, I think I'd keep
mum myself.

It's obvious that the talk surrounding the NYC #3001
is the real deal - it's been cited by a museum member,
the network news and even the mayor of the city of
Elkhart, IN.

The question at heart is do these interested parties
realize just what is involved in such a project. As
railfans, we should encourage such attempts while at
the same time, and perhaps more importantly, help
support OR STEER such attempts in a practical manner.

Instead of lambasting these folks, perhaps we should
lend them our collective experience. This experience
may lead the interested parties to re-evaluate the
true feasibility of a project at the least and at
best, may one day lead to proper restoration and
operation of another nostalgic piece of equipment.

Perhaps to start, an open invitation by those most
experienced via one of the major railfan preservation
sites. Support, advice and temperament rather then
offers for bridges and restoration of lost barn
engines in the country.

/Mitch

Mgoldman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If I were to restore an engine, based on the talk
> that
> surrounds such an endeavor as witness both here
> and
> several other restoration attempts, I think I'd
> keep
> mum myself.

The problem with this particular effort is that its tumbleweed quiet -- it's a small world in steam preservation and unless this is a brand new player, not even existing players know anything about it. The problem with that is there are only so many players and entities that are capable or have experience in what these "groups" are proposing. Secrecy is no surprise, but the fact that the grapevine is bone dry means either a brand new player (California investor that no one knows about?) or that it's just bogus on top of bogus.

>
> It's obvious that the talk surrounding the NYC
> #3001
> is the real deal - it's been cited by a museum
> member,
> the network news and even the mayor of the city of
>
> Elkhart, IN.

Not necessarily. It's the same story repeated several times -- the museum member's information was populated with falsehoods (restoration by July, etc)

>
> The question at heart is do these interested
> parties
> realize just what is involved in such a project.
> As
> railfans, we should encourage such attempts while
> at
> the same time, and perhaps more importantly, help
>
> support OR STEER such attempts in a practical
> manner.

The obligation is on the interested parties. Preservation's obligation is to make sure someone doesn't make us look like a bunch of fools and that the job is done right. The stakes are high. You get a city's valuable historic asset and what happens if you don't make good on your effort? What helps one of us in this industry helps everyone -- what hurts us could derail everything. It doesn't have to become a Gettysburg to give steam a bad name.

>
> Instead of lambasting these folks, perhaps we
> should
> lend them our collective experience. This
> experience
> may lead the interested parties to re-evaluate the
>
> true feasibility of a project at the least and at
>
> best, may one day lead to proper restoration and
> operation of another nostalgic piece of
> equipment.

I would think that if you haven't already examined the feasibility of the project before hand, or consulted steam contractors, or existing operations of comparable likeness, size, and scope, the credibility is already significant waned.



>
> Perhaps to start, an open invitation by those most
>
> experienced via one of the major railfan
> preservation
> sites. Support, advice and temperament rather
> then
> offers for bridges and restoration of lost barn
> engines in the country.

But advice to whom? The city has been approached by folks within the preservation business with cautionary interest and consulting offers -- either to preserve the engine as is or lease it. If they seriously want to investigate it, they of all entities should know what the stakes are. No one can promise that 3001 would EVER return to Elkhart, let alone operate there "25% of the time." There are no guarantees and anyone who is promising that is showing perhaps how little they know.

The obligation is on the presumed parties of interest. We will rally around this thing if it makes sense, but not if it's going to kill an engine or give the industry a black eye.

A few weeks ago I sent an email to the Elkhart Truth editor in reply to the NYC 3001 article, but for some reason it would not work despite the fact that I signed up for their email list and the resulting junkmail...

So I sent it to the Elkhart Mayor and also CC'd it to the city council but the city council email address was rejected and even the email listed for the mayor is not his but perhaps a secretary. Incidentally, I never received a reply.

Here is the email that I sent him:

Dear Honorable Mayor Moore:

I've been following the latest development reference the locomotive at the New York Central Museum. Yes, I am a railfan but also a published author, historian and graduate of the Kelly School of Business at Indiana University. I like to think that last credential, plus having run a business, tempers my enthusiasm a bit. I was also among the crew that restored Nickel Plate 765 back in the late 70s. We did it with a lot less money and within 5 years. I am proud of that accomplishment and I was still in college at that time. I don’t think that anyone has ever beat the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society in that respect.

Incidentally, the 3001 is NOT a passenger locomotive in the purest sense. It was built as a "Dual Service Locomotive", meaning that it was built to haul passenger AND freight trains. I can assure you that it has much more freight train mileage under its belt. However, it would make a wonderful, powerful, one of kind, passenger excursion locomotive. It will stand out as a real class act among the current few mainline steam locomotives in service and be the only New York Central steam locomotive in operation. The Mohawk IS the epitome of modern steam locomotive design and a hallmark of the once great New York Central System. This locomotive deserves to run again and would stand up admirably with any of the great mainline steam locomotives in operation today including Nickel Plate Berkshire 765, Southern Pacific Daylight 4449, or Union Pacific Challenger 3985, among others. This is one powerful class act.

Dick, I say, get some expert advice on this kind of arrangement to make sure the parties interested are viable and have a good plan. Some other locomotives in service are owned by municipalities and leased out. I know that the 4449 from Portland, Oregon is one of them. (The 765 was leased out for $1 a year by the city of Fort Wayne, but I don’t know if that is still in effect.) Cover your bases and negotiate something that will make a lot of people happy, provide some enterprise revenue to the city and put Elkhart, Indiana, a historic railroad town on the map.

If the first major railroad festival in years that brought thousands of people together in Owosso, Michigan last year is any indication, this is a viable item. Other groups across the nation as custodian and not for profits have been successful. But as you may know, some have not been successful—case in point, the group that started work on the 3001. If something can be worked out, at the least, the locomotive should be returned in the same condition or a little better at the end of the lease. However, don’t expect a fully certified, operationally functional locomotive at the end of the lease as flue time will expire, government inspections will be due, etc. etc. As a business, the entity that leases won’t spend any more than it has to. And if the arrangement provides good will, some revenue, publicity to Elkhart and returns the locomotive to the museum in good condition for display again, that might be all that can be asked for.

Some years ago I wrote an article for Trains magazine on the last Lake Shore & Michigan Southern (a predecessor RR of the New York Central) steam locomotive in existence. The locomotive is located many miles from civilization in remote Northwest Maine. A viable historical society showed some interest to return it to its birthplace in Dunkirk, New York. But the state of Maine did not want to part with it. To this day the locomotive sits in the woods, rusting away, vandalized with major parts pilfered. It was an opportunity that was lost.

Hopefully, something can be worked out with the 3001 and the “City with a Heart” will be just that, and not scorned based on an opportunity lost."



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/11 21:17 by wabash2800.

Frisco 1522, JohnEasterly and Anthracite . . . thanks for making me me laugh out loud on a dreary Friday night up in Western Canada!! It's not just the photos, videos and captions that I love about this site . . . it's also the great wit with some of the posts!!

The 765's $1 per year lease with the city of Fort Wayne is NOT in effect. The Society purchased the locomotive from the city in 1986 and owns it free and clear. That means the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society, Inc. has owned the 765 longer than the NKP did!

How about that.

Is Elkhart on Amtrak owned trackage?

Thanks for the info Rich. I thought something was up with that.

No. But the city owns the station from what I understand (and they paid a pretty penny for it).