Steam & Excursion > UP 9000's, 4-12-2's

Curious if there are any Videos of these monsters running around. The UP 9000 Class 4-12-2's..

Mike Keithly
Kimball, NE

Mike;
I seem to recall some videos that had a few clips of them in service but I dont recall which ones they were in. The 9000 at Pomona is a wonderful example of UP's three cylindered steam. I know they ran regularly on my old district east of Cheyenne to Sidney and North Platte NE. They were stationed about everywhere on the UP system.
I had an engineer I fired for tell me that they could get down to about 3 mph on the grade without stalling. Pretty impressive.
Bob Krieger
UP retired Engineer
Cheyenne

Bob Krieger
Cheyenne, WY

I read somewhere, long ago, the opinion that keeping the 3-cylinder machinery in proper order was akin to trying to support a mistress in every division point. Pretty colorful way of putting it, I thought. The 9000's must have been good, tho, as they toiled many years with all that complex stuff in place. IIRC, there is a brief clip of 9000 herself in action in the U.P.-produced Big Boy film called "Last of the Giants."

We have some in Kansas, shot on 16mm film, in our Union Pacific Steam Classics Volume 1. Its in the VINTAGE DVD section on our web site.

Greg Scholl

http://www.gregschollvideo.com

With six even beats compared to four from a two cylinder engine, three cylinder engines could grip and apply tremendous continuous tractive effort. The difficulty in mechanics and balancing made them rare beasts.

Did the U.P. convert its 3-cylinder 4-10-2's to 2-cylinder configuration? Or, am I confusing this with the Espee 4-10-2'?

UP rebuilt the 4-10-2's to two cylinder engines in the L A shops in 1942. At this time they were renumbered from 8800's to 5090 class.
Ryan Ballard

EVEN beats?

filmteknik Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> EVEN beats?

The three cylinders are in even 120 degree increments around the axle. A two cylinder engine has them offset 90 degrees to prevent the driver being stuck in opposition.

nick_gully Wrote:
> filmteknik Wrote:

> > EVEN beats?
>
> The three cylinders are in even 120 degree
> increments around the axle. A two cylinder engine
> has them offset 90 degrees to prevent the driver
> being stuck in opposition.

Some of the only commercially available recordings of a 4-12-2 appeared on Howard Fogg's LP "Union Pacific." There are three different cuts of engine 9009 in action on side 2, and theory notwithstanding, in practice 9009's exhausts can hardly be described as "even." The recordings can be heard on Don Strack's site here:

http://www.utahrails.net/up/up-4-12-2-sounds.php

I believe Greg Scholl has so far come up with as much footage of the 4-12-2's as anyone has and I recommend his program for this reason as well as the other UP steam it contains. I also recommend purchase of "Last of the Giants" for several reasons. First, to my knowledge it contains the only official Union Pacific footage of any 4-12-2. Second, it has many great scenes of in-service steam as well as a few scenes of locos out of service but specifically "operated" for the camera. Third, it contains some fabulous shop scenes. There are two further volumes as well, one comprised of scenes Union Pacific chose not to use in the film (which was intended as a "school room" program, to be on the order of twenty minutes length). The other additional program includes interviews with former and present Union Pacific employees who worked with 9000's or continue the art of operating Union Pacific steam today.

Regarding filmteknik's "EVEN beats?" question, the main driving wheel crank pins on 3-cylinder engines were spaced at 120 degree points on the circle. This was necessary in order to even distribution of "power pulses", as much as possible preventing uneven forces acting on running gear and frames. Further in this effort piston strokes and valve events were arranged to minimize the effect created by inclining the inside cylinder (9 1/2 degrees) to clear the first driving axle.

When in good condition 9000's had a very evenly timed exhaust. Recordings I have heard lead me to believe the 1" larger right cylinder steam pipe, or perhaps the shorter exhaust passages for the center cylinder lead to the single louder exhaust, causing a ONE-two-three-FOUR-five-six (six exhausts per revolution) sound, but with the still even spacing.

The late Howard Fogg made a recording of one of the engines, 9009 if memory is accurate, on the Nebraska division, but that engine is clearly in need of time in the shop as it is very, very rough sounding at the slow-speed track. Quite ill. Instead of the sound mentioned above, 9009 makes something more like one/two-three-four/five-six. Very out of time and fully indicative of the accumulation of nicknames such as "off-beat" or the oft-heard "stuttering Dec's" applied to the SP's 4-10-2's. I've never heard a good recording of those engines. They may, in fact, have been slightly less even than the 4-12-2's, but I don't know.

One of the problems with the 4-12-2's was the tendency by maintenance forces to avoid any but necessary work between the frames on the inside cylinder and motion work. In the early days, through the depression when the engines were the mainstay's certain parts of the main line and thus looked after very carefully this wasn't such a problem. The engines were very important and they were simply seen to, period. However, the tendency to "let things on inside slide" grew worse as the years past and diesels encroached. Many engines were sent to the next terminal when they shouldn't, and certainly in previous years wouldn't have been allowed on the road. It was very hot and extremely dirty in there and men could not be blamed for trying to minimize time in that area.

Union Pacific several times considered roller bearings, including for main and wrist pins on the inside main rod. Had this modification been made a great many of the 4-12-2's foibles would have been eliminated and I'm sure their "maintenance nightmare" reputation largely avoided. Their "machinery mileage" would have been much greater as the roller assemblies helped prevent ever-worsening effects of lost motion due to lack of care in certain critical areas, the engines pounding themselves unmercifully. Certainly, when regular maintenance was deferred or engines were near shop time they developed pretty sloppy exhaust timing.

4-12-2 Wrote:

> Very out of time and fully indicative of the
> accumulation of nicknames such as "off-beat" or
> the oft-heard "stuttering Dec's" applied to the
> SP's 4-10-2's. I've never heard a good recording
> of those engines.

Supposedly there's a track of SP 4-10-2 #5021 on the LP "Whistles West," but I've never found a copy of it and can't attest to its quality.

Regarding 3-cylinders I made 3 trips to Germany in 1972,1974, and 1975, and saw 3-cylinder Pacifics in action. Also rode the cab of one all day on express trains in 1975. The engines had the cylinder between the two in the front of the engine. The sound was unmistakable as they started up, with an "off-beat" sound after the regular two were heard. After about 20-30 mph it all sorta meshed together, and at speed it was a roar!!! These engines normally ran at the end of their service at 120 Kilometers per hour (72). About 5 years earlier it was downgraded from 140. These were the last mainline pacifics in West Germany at the time, but East Germany had some later in operation I believe, although they may not have been three-cylinder.
As a side note, on our last trip in 1975, it was Easter and not much runs that day of course. We visited the engine Shed at Rheine, north of Cologne, and there were about 70 engines there!!!
What a gathering, including many of the 3-cylinder pacifics, as well as the 3-cylinder 2-10-0's(Class 43 and 44), which I just remembered!!!
Greg Scholl

Yes, I'm questioning the "even beats" comment because from what I've read a 3 cylinder engine using Sir Nigel Gresley's conjugated valve gear (typically with Walschaerts driving events on the outside cylinders) would have the two outsides 120° apart from each other but the center cylinder was 110° from one side and 130° from the other. This would stem from the inclined center cylinder, I believe. Don't the 9000's have inclining center cylinders? It looks like they do from photos. If, as Wiki claims, the first axle does not have a relieving crank to clear the main rod then they'd have to.

Which would also make the inside cylinder stroke longer and screw up that nice even
exhaust note.

The inside cylinder stroke was 1" shorter.

John

The center crank pin on a U.P. 9000 is very likely unequally spaced. It would be displaced 9 1/2 degrees from 120 degree spacing as a result of the middle cylinder being placed 9 1/2 degrees above the outside cylinders. If anyone has the blueprints, they would tell the story.

In England the late Don Young in his book, My First 50 Years With Steam, notes on page 47 that the required tolerances designed into the bearings were magnified by the time movement got to the valve for the middle cylinder. With maximum designed tolerances, the lost motion on an English locomotive could add up to almost 7/8 inch. That is a considerable portion of the 4 inches the valve would moving when the engine was 'notched up'. As a result of the lost motion, the valve for the middle cylinder was not necessarily where it should have been.

While a Lutheran pastor, my father had grown up in a Burlington family in Nebraska and Colorado. He fired on the Burlington during a leave of absence from the Denver Fire Department, and also for two summers while in college. The Depression put an end to any more railroading.

My father was a board member of a Lutheran organization that had been in contact with a prospective donor. When meeting with the donor, the chairman, who was a very friendly and cordial man, had the misfortune of somehow antagonizing the donor. The donor had retired from the U.P. Mechanical Department. Trying to be friendly, my father mentioned the magnificent sight that the 800's were as they rolled across Nebraska and Wyoming. The donor agreed. My father blundered when he happened to mention the 9000's. The donor got even more upset. He said that the 9000's had cost the U.P. a lot of money over the years.

The donor had apparently been on the losing side of the argument over the 9000's.

The donation went elsewhere.

In passing, I might say that my father mentioned that his father and uncles always said (which is now close to a hundred years ago) that the Burlington was a much better railroad to work for than the U.P. The U.P. always had a Trainmaster out in the bushes trying to get you into trouble.

Eugene Crowner

My Grandfather ran the 9000s out of North Platte, and I didn't get to talk to him, but my dad said they were very good engines, and Grandpa liked them. Dad said he always heard them off beat. Kratvilles book" The Union Pacific Type" is great info. I have both volumes. Must not have been very bad, as it went from 1926 until the end of steam. And they went as far as new one piece frames later on. A lot of the money spent was to improve the physical plant to handle them. And Kratville speculates that they could have been even better with the addition of roller bearings. UP hedged over them until they were scrapped. I think the only single engine that could match them would have been Baldwin 60000, the water tube boiler 4-10-2 three cylinder that was too late in the game. Kratville also eludes to the fact that they still were making UP money, even late in the game

Hey, Con, did you hear any of the DRGW 3cyl mountains working over T Pass??

The more I think about this I am wondering that if the odd spacing is because of the cylinder angle as we have discussed and not some necessity due to the Gresley gear that maybe the exhaust impulses should be even after all. Yes, I'm potentially contradicting myself. I mean hypothetically any 3 cylinder steam engine should ideally have 120° spacing but that's with aligned cylinders. Move one to a new angle and now the *events* are off kilter. Re-space the odd cylinder to 110°/130° (or whatever it takes) from the other two and shouldn't that put it back to even event timing? Which suggests that maybe that is exactly the point of doing that. But then again I am not knowledgeable enough about Sir Nigel's design to know whether it creates/requires this or whether you can have do other spacings as needed. Anyway, if so then maybe the odd exhaust some report really is from just too much accumulated play between the two sets of Walschaerts and the Gresley gear.

But on further thought maybe it's something in between. Maybe the angle difference is designed to put the cylinder events back closer to equal spacing but for reasons unknown doesn't exactly match like someone cited a 9.5° angle of the cylinder while the relational shift (the 110/130) is 10°. That would leave it a tad off and adding the valve gear slop would be in addition.

Interesting that the stroke would be shorter due to the angle and not longer,
so you would think that you could compensate for that with an angle change.
Be nice to have a set of prints.