Steam & Excursion > UP Steam Doubleheadding

In all the times that the 3985 and 844 have doubbleheaded together, how many times has the 3985 lead? I saw a pic on railpictures.net that describes the 844 as being dead towed behind the 3985 in '99, but other than that, I have never seen these locomotives together on the same train with the 3985 in the lead.

Is there a reason for this?

shorter unit smoke lifters

up3985 Wrote:
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> In all the times that the 3985 and 844 have
> doubbleheaded together, how many times has the
> 3985 lead? I saw a pic on railpictures.net that
> describes the 844 as being dead towed behind the
> 3985 in '99, but other than that, I have never
> seen these locomotives together on the same train
> with the 3985 in the lead.
>
> Is there a reason for this?


Two important reasons:

1) When double heading, Manager Steve Lee was always in the lead, operating 844.

2) General railroad practices USUALLY had the "smaller" locomotive in the lead.

Is that because of weight balance issues?

I guess I could see why having the (what I think lighter) 844 behind the Challenger could cause problems.

Is there advantage to have the smaller loco in the lead?

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up3985 Wrote:
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> Is that because of weight balance issues?

No, "weight balance issues" have nothing to do with it. Since there really aren't any "weight balance issues" anyway. Bridge weight limitations, requiring the two locomotives to be spread apart by freight cars is a different situation, as on the D&RGW narrow gauge.

hunt4004 Wrote:
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> Is there advantage to have the smaller loco in the
> lead?

In most cases, yes. The helper engine can be cut off from the road engine MUCH easier.

From the way I had it explained to me, the faster higher drivered locomotive took the lead and the slower smaller drivered locomotive was the second in consist.

Bob Krieger
Cheyenne, WY

UP 3985 towing the dead 844 at Sacramento in 1999. They added a GE to the point at Roseville.

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Bob,

For what it's worth, the Southern Pacific for example, added helpers on the head end at San Louis Obispo for westbound passenger trains up the Questa Grade. They added anything from 2-8-0s, to 2-8-2s, to 2-10-2, 4-8-2s, ahead of the GS class 4-8-4s. Driver diameter of the head end helper rarely matched the drivers on the road engine.

HotWater Wrote:
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> hunt4004 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Is there advantage to have the smaller loco in
> the
> > lead?
>
> In most cases, yes. The helper engine can be cut
> off from the road engine MUCH easier.

I never thought about that before - it makes perfect sense.

From an aesthetics perspective, it always looked better to me when the smaller locomotive was at the head.

HotWater Wrote:
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> Bob,
>
> For what it's worth, the Southern Pacific for
> example, added helpers on the head end at San
> Louis Obispo for westbound passenger trains up the
> Questa Grade. They added anything from 2-8-0s, to
> 2-8-2s, to 2-10-2, 4-8-2s, ahead of the GS class
> 4-8-4s. Driver diameter of the head end helper
> rarely matched the drivers on the road engine.


hi Jack, Yes, on all portions of the UP the helpers were added to the lead for easy uncoupling when finished except on the Ogden to Evanston run when they were added ahead of the caboose. I will see Steve tomorrow and ask him what the reasoning was because I know he picked that up from some instrutions the Up put out years ago. I thiught that he said it had to do with the lead loco being the faster so it wasn't pushing agains the slower leader. But that may be corrected when I visit with him at the "old steam crew safety meeting".

Bob Krieger
Cheyenne, WY

I think that it's also so the smaller engine isn't getting yanked around by the larger one and having the train behind it, putting more stress on its frame. let the large engine take the direct load. Probably safer...

Mike Massee
Tehachapi, CA
Photography, Railroading and more..

msharps Wrote:

> From an aesthetics perspective, it always looked
> better to me when the smaller locomotive was at
> the head.

An extreme case of not following this practice was a "demonstration train" Santa Fe put together in 1911 showcasing new and old equipment, featuring 2-10-10-2 #3009 as the "new" and 4-4-0 #048 right behind it as the "old":

http://images.wisconsinhistory.org/700009330010/0933000211-l.jpg

There's another picture I've seen in print of a relatively high-drivered Santa Fe 2-6-2 leading a squatty little 4-4-0 on a train in the first decades of the 20th century with a caption along the lines of "perhaps the yardmaster lost his mind?"

There's shots of Santa Fe FT's with a Prarie on the point as the helper. The SP
Fast Mail ran with double headed AC's over Tehac, the UP ran a cow and calf set
as helpers ahead of the FM passenger units, run what yuh brung.

Bob3985 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HotWater Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Bob,
> >
> > For what it's worth, the Southern Pacific for
> > example, added helpers on the head end at San
> > Louis Obispo for westbound passenger trains up
> the
> > Questa Grade. They added anything from 2-8-0s,
> to
> > 2-8-2s, to 2-10-2, 4-8-2s, ahead of the GS
> class
> > 4-8-4s. Driver diameter of the head end helper
> > rarely matched the drivers on the road engine.
>
>
> hi Jack, Yes, on all portions of the UP the
> helpers were added to the lead for easy uncoupling
> when finished except on the Ogden to Evanston run
> when they were added ahead of the caboose. I will
> see Steve tomorrow and ask him what the reasoning
> was because I know he picked that up from some
> instrutions the Up put out years ago. I thiught
> that he said it had to do with the lead loco being
> the faster so it wasn't pushing agains the slower
> leader. But that may be corrected when I visit
> with him at the "old steam crew safety meeting".

Maybe they did it 'cuz they just liked doing "Dutch drops" or a "flying switch" move! (Just kidding)

Harlock Wrote:
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> I think that it's also so the smaller engine isn't
> getting yanked around by the larger one and having
> the train behind it, putting more stress on its
> frame. let the large engine take the direct
> load. Probably safer...


(That is what I meant by weight and balance issues) ;)

I guess the Russians agree, or do they? L(2-10-0)+SU(2-6-2)+SO(2-10-0).
Their weights are 103t(L),86.66t(SU),97.8t(SO). Haruo

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So.....let's think about this.....in other words, a Union Pacific 2-8-8-0 was "faster" than a 4-6-6-4 or 4-8-8-4? Or a 2-10-2 or 4-12-2, faster than the like types? Think, guys, about the helper situations prior to the opening of "three track."

John Bush
Omaha

4-12-2 Wrote:
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> So.....let's think about this.....

Too easy for us, 3/4 of a century later, to overthink this.

99% of it was for operating efficiency and or convenience,
regardless of loco size or driver size. e.g. at the top of the
hill, the lead engine cuts off, wyes, and goes back for another
help. While that's happening, second engineeer does an air test
and departs, usually before the helper can even finish turning.
Very simple: 1 pin to pull. (in some cases, the helper wouldn't
even wye; it would simply drift back down the hill).

Compare that to cutting out the trailing engine at the top of the
hill: Tie hand brakes on the train, cut both engines off, cut
them away from each other, get second engine out of the way, recouple
the lead engine, make air test, release hand brakes, and depart.
Sounds simple, but is time consuming and more work for everybody.

As to why the smaller/faster engine is in front most of the time,
probably due to rules or timetable special instructions, or it was
the only engine vailable for the help, or they "borrowed" it for
the help, or it's just out of the backshop and being broken-in.

Or maybe because they just want it that way,