Steam & Excursion > Iowa Interstate dumping QJ's

Spoke with Henry Posner today on the IAIS excursion. The QJ's are/ have been donated to a new non profit, Central States Steam Preservation Association. CSSPA will be offered the same deal as any other excursion group, IE, enough money and insurance, maybe you can run. CSSPA was fund raising on the trip. They have high hopes, trying to get BNSF to let them run at railroad days in Galesburg next year(they aren't getting a response), and a trip Des Moines to Omaha with the 261 cars next fall but I think 6988 and 7081 will join sister 7040 in the stuffed and mounted department. Henry stated with some sadness the QJ'S to be an ever increasing liability, and distraction to business operations, and that "No good deed goes unpunished"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/14 17:38 by unseenthings.

Sad to learn that. I saw one of them by the old Rock Island station in Council Bluffs on my way to the UP Museum one day from the South Expressway. It was quite lively. I wish I had time to stop and watch. Mark Henrys' last words. You will hear them again.
JB



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/14 19:10 by Copy19.

unseenthings Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Spoke with Henry Posner today on the IAIS
> excursion. The QJ's are/ have been donated to a
> new non profit, Central States Steam Preservation
> Association. CSSPA will be offered the same deal
> as any other excursion group, IE, enough money and
> insurance, maybe you can run. CSSPA was fund
> raising on the trip. They know have high hopes,
> trying to get BNSF to let they run at railroad
> days in Galesburg next year(they aren't getting a
> response), and a trip Des Moines to Omaha with the
> 261 cars next fall but I think 6988 and 7081 will
> join sister 7040 in the stuffed and mounted
> department. Henry stated with some sadness the
> QJ'S to be an ever increasing liability, and
> distraction to business operations, and that "No
> good deed goes unpunished"
>
> Posted from Android

Who is this Central States Steam Preservation? Were are they located?

CSSPA is a new group. Less than a month old. No page or anything for them. They are hoping to relocate from Newton to Quad Cities and do something similar to Oregon Rail Heritage Center or 765 with public access to the engines and other such rail things.

Yea, right. Tell them to rebuild a Rock Island 4-6-2 rather than redo what's already been done.

Keystone1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yea, right. Tell them to rebuild a Rock Island
> 4-6-2 rather than redo what's already been done.


Now there is a great idea. Park 2 operable locomotives
and concentrate on a p.o.s. that you don't even have instead.

Dickens Disease must be contagious.

Any word on the status of the QJ situation at RJ Corman?

Can't recall offhand whether they had more than one.

Copy19 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sad to learn that. I saw one of them by the old
> Rock Island station in Council Bluffs on my way to
> the UP Museum one day from the South Expressway.
> It was quite lively. I wish I had time to stop
> and watch. Mark Henrys' last words. You will
> hear them again.
> JB

From Dodge St.?

CA_Sou_MA_Agent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Any word on the status of the QJ situation at RJ
> Corman?
>
> Can't recall offhand whether they had more than
> one.


The 2008 has a year left on it before it needs caps and flexibles checked, since Rick died nobody at RJC has expressed a desire to see her run. She is stored serviceable in Lexington.

Personally, I never cared for these steamers, but ANY steam is better than no steam, so it is indeed sad news. I have heard rumors from more than one source that Corman has ZERO intentions of ever running theirs again.

I don't usually spend time in these forums but am responsible for the information getting out and putting Henry on the spot before we made an "official" press release. Some of the speculative thoughts not directly attributed to Henry probably came from me and has quickly taught me a relatively harmless lesson that "loose lips sink ships"! It was a last minute idea to do a cab ride raffle fundraiser and nobody thought that in this world of social media, just letting people know of our existence is akin to a press release. We just saw an opportunity and in having fun with it, got a little more public than we were ready for. We had just agreed the night before that we were ready and in the next few weeks, we would be making a formal announcement and opening our website. Until then, I will share a little background information from a personal perspective that won't be in our official press release and add some context to the report posted.
It is common knowledge that when Henry bought these locomotives and brought them to the US, his intent was to sell them. Driving that wasn't a desire to make a lot of money on it but his personal effort to save working versions of one of the largest number built of any class locomotive and one that arguably put on the last "greatest steam show on earth". It was pretty obvious the Chinese didn't care about this and current evidence continues to bear that out. Unfortunately, other than Corman, this was as far as it got. Henry has used the phrase as quoted in a couple of contexts but I believe that trying to save and maintain working QJ steam engines was his good deed and others, such as putting them under the railroad and working on the formation of the CSSPA are really just part of that same effort. About five years ago, he turned over responsibility for maintenance and operation of the locomotives to the Iowa Interstate. For the first few years, this worked very well, especially when it came to the care and improvements to the engines and the professionalism required of all those involved, especially in the volunteers. However, as we became more active, the risks associated with running their own program started to become more apparent to the railroad management and the other investors in the company. While Henry is the Chairman of the Board and a majority shareholder, he doesn't "own" the company and in this litigious world we live in, you can understand their reason for seeking a separation of steam passenger operations from a fast growing, but still small in industry terms, freight railroad.
Two years ago, Henry and the railroad began looking for another solution. First they talked to a few of the successful mainline operators and a couple of tourist operations looking for someone with a proven track record to come in and run the program. Understandably, the response was either we don't have enough resources to manage two programs or we'll do it but would suck most of the profits out and put it toward our main interest. This will probably be the only part that will be repeated in our "official" announcement and this is the answer to "who are the CSSPA". We are the core group of volunteers who have put thousands and thousands of hours into making these steam engines run, some of the railroad employees, and a few interested citizens in the area. Our track record is five years running under mainline railroad authority and bringing two Chinese steam engines, that still had a lot of "made in China" issues, up to a standard of reliability and condition comparable to their US built and restored counterparts. We run reliably at 40mph in a small driver freight engine, same as what most of the American high driver engines are being held to today. After watching and participating in the process to find another solution, it became apparent that the only people who really cared enough about the program and these engines were the people who have been involved with them already. Let me say that a lot of smart people, in the railroad, RDC Corp, our volunteers, and a few outsiders participated in a discussion/negotiation that took almost 10 months before any paperwork was filed. When judgment day does finally come, none of us want Henry's good dead to be punished again!
We know exactly what we are getting into and recognize that it may evolve in ways other than what we think today, however, all involved are fiercely dedicated to keeping them running, have a plan, and will do everything possible to make that happen. I am the president of the organization but to most of you I am a nobody. I own and operate a small manufacturing company and got into full size through part trains, starting with the QJ's right when they went under the IAIS. I was an American engine snob at first but quickly realized that the cab may be reversed and aesthetics aside, these work the same, do the same, sound the same, and act the same as any steam engine, including American ones! My point here is that all of us in the CSSPA stepped up to the plate and walked-the-walk, both in volunteering and by forming this organization out of our passion to keep anything that can, still steaming. In a few weeks, when our website comes out, I'm asking you to put aside any American snobbery and pessimism you might have, and if you truly love steam locomotives as we do, click on the link to join us or to make a donation. Like the raffle fundraiser, your contribution is a small amount when compared to the costs, however, small amounts from a lot of different sources add up and make a difference. So instead of talking-the-talk, we are asking you to walk-the-walk with us to help make sure they aren't stuffed and mounted. I will say with absolute certainty, this group was not created by a bunch of dreamers. We are very realistic and optimistic that our efforts will succeed and much has already been done for that to happen. I will not reply to anything else until we have gone "official" but I did not want to let this post go without adding context to what was reported.
President of the Central States Steam Preservation Association

Perhaps the three could go back to China (seriously) or does China have plenty of operable engines there or on display?

I wish all luck to the group and sounds like there is a plan. I have seen the locomotives run and they can put on a show as good as any other locomotive running today. See first three photos from my post a few years ago:
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,1790387,1790506#msg-1790506

Why don't you disclose the names of those involved if you want some support?

depotdan

Realist... myself and most of my friends went to China multiple times in the '80's. Frankly, I personally am sick of those damn QJ's. There were thousands of them. Sure they are operable steam engines...but they are still those damn QJ's. When we were trackside set up at a good location for photography, waiting for steam, we all hoped for Pacific's on passenger or doubleheaded 2-8-2's to come by. Then, someone would shout out, "another damn QJ". So my point realist is, if a new organization is going to start up in the steam excursion business, why do a rehash of someone else. When I said why not rebuild a Rock Island 4-6-2 or a Frisco Meteor blue 4-8-4, people would come out of their graves to see and ride behind them. Get my point?

How many people are going to come out of their graves (and then pay) to see some restored engine?
How many people will come and bring their delighted kids if someone runs a QJ with a Thomas nose glued to it?

How much money is it going to take to find, buy, rebuild, and certify nonfunctional engines and rolling stock that is in its grave?
How much money is it going to take to run something that RUNS, and is still legal?

BTW, not everyone is a) of your generation, nor b) went to China with the specific goal of getting sick of seeing QJs.

Keystone1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Realist... myself and most of my friends went to
> China multiple times in the '80's. Frankly, I
> personally am sick of those damn QJ's. There were
> thousands of them. Sure they are operable steam
> engines...but they are still those damn QJ's. When
> we were trackside set up at a good location for
> photography, waiting for steam, we all hoped for
> Pacific's on passenger or doubleheaded 2-8-2's to
> come by. Then, someone would shout out, "another
> damn QJ". So my point realist is, if a new
> organization is going to start up in the steam
> excursion business, why do a rehash of someone
> else. When I said why not rebuild a Rock Island
> 4-6-2 or a Frisco Meteor blue 4-8-4, people would
> come out of their graves to see and ride behind
> them. Get my point?

I certainly do get your point. You were as unhappy
on your China trip as you are today because things
just were not up to your personal expectations.
Maybe you should have complained to the Chinese.

You must be a real joy to be around when foaming.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/14 07:30 by Realist.

Realist and Iwilton ...I know that cavones (sp?), will not see the difference between a Chinese QJ on the point or a Chinese RM Pacific. I am truly a very happy person with steam, but when you are waiting for and shooting, freight after freight coming by like street cars, all with QJ's on the point, when finally here comes passenger train with an RM Pacific, working hard and smoking out of a station stop, you remember the highlight photos of the day...not the endless parade of identical QJ's. THIS is why I'm suggesting that NEW groups pick NEW engines to start them off with excitement. There are sure plenty of unrebuilt locomotives out there that we'd all like to see run. Suggestion...the same St. Louis Museum that Frisco 1522 came from also has a NKP Hudson. Anyone like to see that one run? What are YOUR future favorites?

My future favorites are kept to myself. I have too many
existing favorites.

It is absolutely amazing that almost 6 decades after the
big steam show ended in this country, there are actually
people who are bored with the handful of big locomotives
that still run or soon will. Have we become that spoiled?

Or that there are people who travel halfway around the
globe to see steam in action and going by on streetcar
frequencies who still manage to dig deep enough to find
something to bitch and whine about.

Yeah, you've seen all this stuff. Good for you. You have
photos and memories that only a tiny handful of folks today
have, and that for the most part cannot be replicated. How
great is that? Who, today, wouldn't want to see what you
have seen and heard?

It is great, for certain. That is why it is curious why
you just have to lord it over today's fans.

There are a lot of discussions about such things as why
there are so few young foamers and why they tend not to
join organizations such as NRHS (just one example). And
that the "old geezers" who have seen it all already tend
to dismiss them and ignore them.

I think this is a great example of the old, fickle foamers
who do just that. Never good enough, never happy, never
satisfied, always wanting something more or different, and
not shy about it.

One minute you are pleased the 4014 might run again. Then
you just drop that and start baying at the moon about RI
Pacifics or Frisco Northerns or God only knows what else.

The same kind of guy who shows up when a big engine is
operating and brings everyone down with his constant
griping and complaining. And always has criticism for
the crew, the sponsors, the host railroad, and everyone
else because they don't, in some miniscule way, meet
his lofty expectations.

If HE isn't satisfied, then by God, nobody else should
be satisfied, either. Better everyone should miserable.

Sorry, but I do my foaming to enjoy things, not to be
told how inadequate or imperfect it is.

Realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My future favorites are kept to myself. I have
> too many
> existing favorites.
>
> It is absolutely amazing that almost 6 decades
> after the
> big steam show ended in this country, there are
> actually
> people who are bored with the handful of big
> locomotives
> that still run or soon will. Have we become that
> spoiled?
>
> Or that there are people who travel halfway around
> the
> globe to see steam in action and going by on
> streetcar
> frequencies who still manage to dig deep enough to
> find
> something to bitch and whine about.
>
> Yeah, you've seen all this stuff. Good for you.
> You have
> photos and memories that only a tiny handful of
> folks today
> have, and that for the most part cannot be
> replicated. How
> great is that? Who, today, wouldn't want to see
> what you
> have seen and heard?
>
> It is great, for certain. That is why it is
> curious why
> you just have to lord it over today's fans.
>
> There are a lot of discussions about such things
> as why
> there are so few young foamers and why they tend
> not to
> join organizations such as NRHS (just one
> example). And
> that the "old geezers" who have seen it all
> already tend
> to dismiss them and ignore them.
>
> I think this is a great example of the old, fickle
> foamers
> who do just that. Never good enough, never happy,
> never
> satisfied, always wanting something more or
> different, and
> not shy about it.
>
> One minute you are pleased the 4014 might run
> again. Then
> you just drop that and start baying at the moon
> about RI
> Pacifics or Frisco Northerns or God only knows
> what else.
>
> The same kind of guy who shows up when a big
> engine is
> operating and brings everyone down with his
> constant
> griping and complaining. And always has criticism
> for
> the crew, the sponsors, the host railroad, and
> everyone
> else because they don't, in some miniscule way,
> meet
> his lofty expectations.
>
> If HE isn't satisfied, then by God, nobody else
> should
> be satisfied, either. Better everyone should
> miserable.
>
> Sorry, but I do my foaming to enjoy things, not to
> be
> told how inadequate or imperfect it is.


Thanks for saying this, I agree 100%