Steam & Excursion > Swingin vs non-swinging bells on steam locomotives

Recently I watched some footage of 4501 and 765 and noticed something I had not noticed really before. On 4501 when the bell is activated, the whole thing swings back and forth. 3751's belll also swings. But 765's bell remains fixed and the hammer inside must be moving instead of the bell itself.

Are there any pros and cons to these two approaches? Do any of you who actively work or have worked on locomotives with both types have a preference? Just wondering.

Many railroads up-graded their bells to fixed, with an internal ringer assembly, due to the reduction of moving parts on the air cylinder operating mechanism for making the bell "swing". By the around the late 1930s, many roads ordered their new steam power with "fixed bells", and some were not even brass bells, as on the NKP, which had steel bells.

Swinging bells are neat, but a pain in the ass to keep adjusted for some reason.  Little difference in air pressure or the way the planets were aligned and they would either stick and you'd have to pull the rope or they would keep doing somersaults.  Even the railroads had troubles with them from a couple of shop bulletins that I read.
I still like the swingers, just not keeping them adjusted.

The truth is;  Some bells are more faithful to thier locomotives than other (more swinging) bells are.......

ha ha......ha ha......

That there was funny, I don't care who you are......

Just curious about one point....I've always thought that manually operated bells swung on the mount, whereas mechanically operated bells had fixed mounts and only the clapper moved.  Have I got it?  Or, do I need learnin'?  My personal taste is for manually operated bells, they just sound better to me.  AA

Stanford White
Carmel Valley, CA

agentatascadero Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just curious about one point....I've always
> thought that manually operated bells swung on the
> mount, whereas mechanically operated bells had
> fixed mounts and only the clapper moved.

Not really. There were mechanically operated swinging bells, which were "swung/moved" by an air powered cylinder mounted on the side of the bell arm. Thus, the air cylinder made the bell swing, and clang, just the same way it would if pulled by a rope/cable by the Fireman.

  Have I
> got it?  Or, do I need learnin'?  My personal
> taste is for manually operated bells, they just
> sound better to me.  AA

Thank you, Jack, for that information....which leads me to another question:  Manaully operated bells have an off beat cadence, which really appeals to me......would it be true that mechanically operated swinging bells ring with a more consistent cadence, sounding like mechanically operated fixed bells?  Just thinking....those SF cable car bells,  manually operated, and beautifully so, aren't those bells fixed, with only the clapper moving?  Sorry for sounding llike an old punch drunk prize fighter who hears ringing in his ears.  AA

Stanford White
Carmel Valley, CA

agentatascadero Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you, Jack, for that information....which
> leads me to another question:  Manaully operated
> bells have an off beat cadence, which really
> appeals to me......would it be true that
> mechanically operated swinging bells ring with a
> more consistent cadence, sounding like
> mechanically operated fixed bells? 

In my opinion, no. The air cylinder operated swinging bell can definitely have an "off beat" cadence, because every once in a while the clapper may get stuck to one side of the bell. The fixed bell with its internal ringer "cartridge" is consistently steady, and if one listens carefully the "click" of the operating pellet in the plunger can be heard between "rings", which is exactly how a bell on a diesel unit works also.

Just
> thinking....those SF cable car bells,  manually
> operated, and beautifully so, aren't those bells
> fixed, with only the clapper moving?  Sorry for
> sounding llike an old punch drunk prize fighter
> who hears ringing in his ears.  AA

I have no clue how a SF cable car bell works, but listening to them, they sure do NOT sound like any locomotive bell I've ever heard. I always thought the cable car operator stepped on a foot pedal in order to clang the bell.

I think they are a round gong type bell like the ones some of our Motorcars have on them.
Steve

HotWater Wrote:
> I have no clue how a SF cable car bell works, but
> listening to them, they sure do NOT sound like any
> locomotive bell I've ever heard. I always thought
> the cable car operator stepped on a foot pedal in
> order to clang the bell.

I wish they would lay off ringing a darn bell all the time.  It takes away from the beautiful chuff of he engine.

WRRC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The truth is;  Some bells are more faithful to
> thier locomotives than other (more swinging) bells
> are.......
>
> ha ha......ha ha......
>
> That there was funny, I don't care who you
> are......

Don't give up your day job...

tomstp Wrote:
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> I wish they would lay off ringing a darn bell all
> the time.  It takes away from the beautiful chuff
> of he engine.

1) Please tell that to the FRA.

2) On a steam locomotive, the Engineer can hardly hear the damned bell anyway, and sometimes forgets to turn it off. Since he can't hear it, the bell then rings for quite awhile.

Personally I like the swinging belles, .... oh wait a minutes we are talking about bell's .....

The swinging motion creates different sounds as the bell physically moves more air then a clapper-type and the bell opening is moving back and forth modulating the ringing sound :)

wpjones Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think they are a round gong type bell like the
> ones some of our Motorcars have on them.
> Steve
>
> HotWater Wrote:
> > I have no clue how a SF cable car bell works,
> but
> > listening to them, they sure do NOT sound like
> any
> > locomotive bell I've ever heard. I always
> thought
> > the cable car operator stepped on a foot pedal
> in
> > order to clang the bell.                                                                                                                                      It's been many years since I've been aboard one, but those cable car bells, if memory serves, were fixed.  There was a rope attached to the clapper, operated by the Gripman, some of these guys would get real fancy with their ringing.....in fact there once was an annual contest (still happening?  I don't know) to determine Muni's best bell ringer....don't know fi the competition was limited to cable car Gripmen, or anyone employed by Muni.  I never did attend the event, but have seen some very nice footage (KRK probably has a video of this) of the competitions.  AA

Stanford White
Carmel Valley, CA

Frisco's 4500s had Bi Bells (swung both ways).  They were in a yoke for swinging bells with a rope, plus an air line on the top for the dinger.  I've also seen bells where the air line goes into the other side of the bell yoke to the dinger inside.

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Here are two bells in my collectio. The UP bell has an air ringer mount cast into the right side of the cradle, and before being fixed up for presentation, it would have had an air ringer instead of the pull lever. The Santa Fe bell (from 2-6-2 1873) might have had an air ringer too at one time, but mounted a different way to a short arm on the opposite side as the pull arm. Also, many of these top boiler mount bells had a flat springy bar with a twist at each end attatched above the bell, under the stem nut. This kept the bell from swinging completely around 360° by limiting the swing. The bar was just long enough that it would strike the cradle and keep it from rolling completely around.

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There does seem to be a tendency for over ringing locomotive bells.  The purpose of the bell is to alert bystanders of the locomotive's presence.  Once that is done then turn off the bell.  A few rings when starting up is neccesary, but ringing continuously for long periods of time is not.  Paying attention to the overuse of bells will greatly enhance the experience of those who come trackside to see our locomotives.  

From the General Code of Operating Rules:
5.8 Bell and Whistle Signals 5.8.1 Ringing Engine Bell Ring the engine bell under any of the following conditions: 

• Before moving, except when making momentary stop and start switching movements.
• As a warning signal anytime it is necessary.
• When approaching public crossings at grade with the engine in front, as follows:
  
  • If distance permits, ringing must begin at least 1/4 mile before the public crossing and continue until the crossing is occupied. or
    
    • If distance does not permit, ringing must begin soon enough before the crossing to provide a warning and continue until the crossing is occupied,

 

Rick Rowlands
Hubbard, OH
Youngstown Steel Heritage

I agree with everything you say, Rick. However, it is almost impossible to hear the bell ringing from in the cab, on 844, 3985 and 4449, when working a heavy throttle and accelerating to track speed.

Also, isn't the bell supposed to be on, i.e. ringing, when operating within yard limits?

I was drifting through Lindenwood yards with the bell ringing and Jeff told me to shut that thing off you're embarassing yourself????
When 1522 was working full out coming at you, she was so loud that the bell was ringing but standing trackside you couldn't hear it.
Also, somebody asked me once why bells were painted red inside.  When it's on the front of the engine, it is a visible as well as audible warning device.