Steam & Excursion > So Why Does This Steam Locomotive Have 2 Mainline Road Names?

Here is one I could use some hep on.  You do not often see a single steam locomotive carrying on her tender the names of 2 different mainline railroads.  But that is exactly what we have here.

The date is June 1947 and the place is Denver, Colorado.  We see that Colorado & Southern 0-6-0 #232 carries not only the C&S logo but also that of the Santa Fe.  Did they both own her for some reason?  Did she do joint switching for both roads there in Denver.

Who can tell us what her story is?

Martin



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/15 04:56 by LoggerHogger.

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Because it is assigned to the "Joint Line" out of Denver, Colorado.

Jack,

Could you tell us more about this "joint line"?  Who owned it? Etc.

Martin

Martin,

Can't remember much but, it was co-owned by Colorado & Southern (parent company was CB&Q), now obviously BNSF, and Santa Fe. I believe it was south of Denver towards Pueblo, and Trinidad (I think Trinidad south well into Texas was the Fort Worth & Denver). The Santa Fe was also at Trinidad, CO..

LoggerHogger Wrote:
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> Jack,
>
> Could you tell us more about this "joint line"? 
> Who owned it? Etc.
>
> Martin

I found this
http://www.drgw.net/info/Denver-PuebloMain
 

Martin,

By 1900 there were three railroads with separate tracks from Denver to Pueblo (the D&RG, the Santa Fe and the C&S) and the D&RG and the C&S had their own main lines from Pueblo to Trinidad (although this part had some shared trackage).   At some point the railroads got together and decided that if they operated the two best routes between Denver and Pueblo (D&RG and AT&SF) with directional running, it would not onlyaccomdate more trains than the three single track lines, but it would benefit all 3.  South of Pueblo, the C&S and the D&RG built an entirely new joint line, and abandoned both of the old ones.  North of Pueblo, C&S was just a tenant, rather than an owner as its old line was totally abandoned.   I believe that there was some sort of an agreement between the C&S and the Santa Fe that the Denver area switching for them would be handled jointly, with both RRs contributing motive power and crews, with the locos being lettered for both roads, which is why the engine in your picture is lettered that way.    

Many years ago, in a time of slow rail traffic,  the city of Colorado Springs prevailed on the RRs involved to abandon the Santa Fe line through the city,in favor of single track on the old D&RGW main so the middle of the joint line is a real bottle neck now.


 

The C&S-AT&SF lettering lasted into the BN era.

There's are recent book called the Joint Line: 1880-1995 by Robert D. Walz, published by the Santa Fe Rwy Historical and Modeling Society that is filling in a lot of questions I've had about the Joint Line. Lots of Steam era photos, also transition era diesels, some pre-merger and some amazing maps and details of old Denver.

I've been working my through the book for a while now (I tend to focus on the route selection and build rational) and just realized the graphic design work was done by Jonathan Signor. Nice work. Jonathan has been working with his father on number of publications for the past few years. They are a very hard working and dedicated team.

I had heard about the book and checked the shelves at Caboose Hobbies, they had not heard of it and started to look for it. One day I happened to find it sitting on the shelf at the Train Shop in Santa Clara.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/15 10:29 by TCnR.

There were also diesel switchers with joint lettering on them.

In late 1899 the ATSF and C&S entered into an informal Joint Operating Agreement, it was formalized in 1900.  Under the JOA agreement the ATSF took over switching activities for both companies in Pueblo and Colorado Springs while the C&S took over all switching activities for both companies in Denver.  As such some switch engines from both companies working in the three terminals were lettered for both company's.  The C&S entered into this agreement after finding that its route between Pueblo and Denver, originally the Denver & New Orleans was inferior and non competitve to the ATSF or D&RG.  While originally under the agreement both lines were to be retained,  most traffic was moved over to the ATSF route.  The section of the orginal D&NO between Falcon and Pueblo was removed druing the scrap drives of WW I.  Dual lettering on some diesel switch engines lasted into the 1980's.
 

The single track part of the joint line also goes through the USAF academy, with the old roadbed now a very popular multi-use trail.
The response of locals to any plans to add capacity to the joint line is to build a by-pass line far out on the plains east of Denver and Colorado Springs using "free" money (Federal).
I make a joke, using money from the whole nation to preserve their property values.

It seems to me there were some diesel swithchers lettered for both roads.  I vaguely think they were ALCOs painted in CB&Q scheme.
ALLEN

I think the NorthWestern Pacific began as a similar partnership.  There very well could have been (but weren't) locomotives lettered AT&SF/ SP before the Santa Fe pulled out leaving the operation entirely to the SP. 
SR

I was checking that out while in the area last winter, some parts of the remaining line has plenty of room, some parts are getting crowded by new build. Also heard there are plans of re-signalling the line but there's some sort of hesitation to that idea as well.

Whatever the story is they need to get it together and at least buy some adjacent land, a lot of those fills have a large footprint and the subdivisions outside of Palmer Lake are getting pretty close to the fence line as it is. I didn't bother going south of Colorado Springs this time since the road traffic in the area becomes standing room only very quickly. During the week there's a definite commute direction, on the weekends the jam lasts all day.

Interesting history, check it out while you can.

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> The single track part of the joint line also goes
> through the USAF academy, with the old roadbed now
> a very popular multi-use trail.
> The response of locals to any plans to add
> capacity to the joint line is to...

Part of the Joint Line Agreement between the Santa Fe and the Colorado & Southern was that the C&S would provide the yard facilites and switching in Denver and the Santa Fe would provide the yard facilities and switchers in Pueblo.
So in Denver you had C&S switch engines that were lettered C&S and AT&SF and in Peublo you had Santa Fe switch engines that were lettered C&S and AT&SF.
Lasted that way all the way to 1980 or so.

royalgorge Wrote:

>  Dual lettering on some
> diesel switch engines lasted into the 1980's.

What was the reason for actually putting both railroads' initials on the locomotives?  It seems like only some of the Santa Fe switchers working Pueblo and Colorado Springs had the joint lettering.  Santa Fe 44-ton Whitcomb 451 was assigned to Colorado Springs for quite a while, but never wore C&S initials as far as I know.  The only Santa Fe-owned diesel locomotives with dual lettering I've been able to document are:

GE 44-ton 464: http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,2207262
DS-4-4-750 #632: http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,3637069
RSD-4 #2107: http://condrenrails.com/Diesel-Locomotives/scans/ATSF-2107-Pueblo-CO-5-13-62.jpg
VO1000 #2218: http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,3637069

All of those were long-gone by 1980. Most of the C&S-owned diesels I've seen with dual lettering were EMD switchers:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,1926702
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,2592674

Not sure who to credit for the original, but I think I got this from Rick's Train Page.

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I took this one at Denver Union Station during my trip from Chicago to Oakland in the early days of Amtrak (Sept 1971).

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