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Steam & Excursion > UP Steam Auxiliary Tenders - why the change?Date: 05/03/16 17:43 UP Steam Auxiliary Tenders - why the change? Author: JLW2K Quick question for our resident experts:
Why did UP rebuild the Auxiliary Water tenders in the UP steam program in the 2000's? Why did they change the design instead of leaving the old turbine tenders as is? Thanks in advance for any insight. -James Date: 05/03/16 17:51 Re: UP Steam Auxiliary Tenders - why the change? Author: Frisco1522 Stripped all the insulation from the bodies and took a lot of stuff out of the interiors.
Date: 05/03/16 18:04 Re: UP Steam Auxiliary Tenders - why the change? Author: HotWater Frisco1522 Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Stripped all the insulation from the bodies and > took a lot of stuff out of the interiors. Exactly. And the removal of all the heavy oil heating equipment from the insides, gained an additional 2000+ gallons of capacity. Date: 05/03/16 18:22 Re: UP Steam Auxiliary Tenders - why the change? Author: JLW2K Did the external change happen to gain water capacity as well, or was it a side effect of removing internal components?
Thanks, James Date: 05/03/16 18:32 Re: UP Steam Auxiliary Tenders - why the change? Author: HotWater JLW2K Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Did the external change happen to gain water > capacity as well, or was it a side effect of > removing internal components? > > Thanks, > James No, the insulation & cover material on the outsides was more cosmetic, plus reduction of excess "dead" un-necessary weight. Removal of all that un-necessary external crap also allowed modifications to each end with improved water filling piping. Both cars look MUCH better now, carry more water, and are totally rebuilt. Although internal damage has surely been done after the current manager changed the boiler water treatment chemicals, back in 2011. Date: 05/03/16 19:37 Re: UP Steam Auxiliary Tenders - why the change? Author: Realist Andthey now look a lot more like the FEF-1 tenders from which
they were built into turbine tenders. Date: 05/03/16 20:53 Re: UP Steam Auxiliary Tenders - why the change? Author: WRRC All of the above are correct and I would add the following......
Date: 05/04/16 05:59 Re: UP Steam Auxiliary Tenders - why the change? Author: nathan314 There's a bunch of discussion and photos from when the conversion was actually going on here:
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?10,1080425,1080425#msg-1080425 As John said, there are no drawings of the finished tenders, however I was given the attached, a drawing of a GTEL tender. Nathan Beauheim Cheyenne, WY Date: 05/04/16 09:24 Re: UP Steam Auxiliary Tenders - why the change? Author: Realist As I have been told, the mods reduced the empty weight of the car by around 7,500 pounds, while increasing the capacity to somewhere North of 30,000 gallons each.
Somwhere about the same time period, the trucks were rebuilt with all new springs, pins, bushings, etc. And received new wheel sets with new roller bearings, etc. The DL claims both cars are now worn out junk and he will build one or two new cars to replace these. Posted from Android Date: 05/04/16 12:10 Re: UP Steam Auxiliary Tenders - why the change? Author: NKPBernet Realist Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Andthey now look a lot more like the FEF-1 > tenders from which > they were built into turbine tenders. Realist/HotWater, Any reason a set of trucks from a big blow tender weren't swapped in place of the centipede wheels on the 3985/844? -Dave Date: 05/04/16 13:16 Re: UP Steam Auxiliary Tenders - why the change? Author: HotWater dbesade Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Realist Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Andthey now look a lot more like the FEF-1 > > tenders from which > > they were built into turbine tenders. > > Realist/HotWater, > > Any reason a set of trucks from a big blow tender > weren't swapped in place of the centipede wheels > on the 3985/844? > > -Dave Those are called "pedestal type" tenders for a reason, i.e. the whole pedestal frame is one huge casting. There would be no practical method to mount trucks to such a design, and to what gain anyway? Date: 05/04/16 13:50 Re: UP Steam Auxiliary Tenders - why the change? Author: NKPBernet HotWater Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > dbesade Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Realist Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > Andthey now look a lot more like the FEF-1 > > > tenders from which > > > they were built into turbine tenders. > > > > Realist/HotWater, > > > > Any reason a set of trucks from a big blow > tender > > weren't swapped in place of the centipede > wheels > > on the 3985/844? > > > > -Dave > > Those are called "pedestal type" tenders for a > reason, i.e. the whole pedestal frame is one huge > casting. There would be no practical method to > mount trucks to such a design, and to what gain > anyway? Were the FEF-1 Tenders "Pedestal Type" originally?. I've seen a few threads with complaints about centipede tenders ability to navigate tight curves versus a 4 wheel or 6 wheel truck. I seem to recall also someone quoting Steve Lee on something similiar but please don't quote me on that. Regardless all seemed to function fine, just a curious question thats all. -Dave Date: 05/04/16 13:56 Re: UP Steam Auxiliary Tenders - why the change? Author: HotWater dbesade Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Were the FEF-1 Tenders "Pedestal Type" > originally?. No. In fact, those were the tenders used for the turbines, presently under discussion. I've seen a few threads with > complaints about centipede tenders ability to > navigate tight curves versus a 4 wheel or 6 wheel > truck. Making reverse movements, you are correct, however that obviously was not considered an issue, back in the steam days. I seem to recall also someone quoting Steve > Lee on something similiar but please don't quote > me on that. Regardless all seemed to function > fine, just a curious question thats all. > > -Dave Date: 05/04/16 14:08 Re: UP Steam Auxiliary Tenders - why the change? Author: NKPBernet HotWater Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > dbesade Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Were the FEF-1 Tenders "Pedestal Type" > > originally?. > > No. In fact, those were the tenders used for the > turbines, presently under discussion. > > I've seen a few threads with > > complaints about centipede tenders ability to > > navigate tight curves versus a 4 wheel or 6 > wheel > > truck. > > Making reverse movements, you are correct, however > that obviously was not considered an issue, back > in the steam days. > > I seem to recall also someone quoting Steve > > Lee on something similiar but please don't > quote > > me on that. Regardless all seemed to function > > fine, just a curious question thats all. > > > > -Dave Jack, Your first point is why I asked the question :). So these were converted to a "Pedestal" style truck/frame as a part of their conversion to tenders for the turbines as I understand. As I have read here: http://utahrails.net/up/gte-tenders.php, there is yet another unused tender (http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2538472) in Cheyenne , would there be any benefit to either retrofitting it or using parts from it to replace the centipede style axle arrangement found on one of the remaining tenders (844/3985, etc). Especially with regards to reverse moves, etc. My apologies if my original inquiry was not clear. -Dave Date: 05/04/16 14:23 Re: UP Steam Auxiliary Tenders - why the change? Author: nycman I don't know for sure, so probably shouldn't even comment, but I suspect that the original FEF tenders were not "modified" to pedestal types, the originals were replaced by the PTs. That was the case for most of New York Central's Hudsons. They were delivered with six wheel trucked tenders which were later replaced with PTs having more water and coal capacity than the originals. Late in the Hudson production cycle, it was interesting that Alco built the locomotives, and Lima built the PT tenders.
Date: 05/05/16 07:15 Re: UP Steam Auxiliary Tenders - why the change? Author: Realist I suggest some of you take a peek at the "tender" section of a Locomotive Cyclopedia from the 1940s.
It will become immediately obvious that there is no practical or economical way to convert a pedestal tender to a trucked tender, or vice-versa. IOW, it didn't happen. Both types of UP tender had cast steel, water-bottom frames. That means the top of the frames were the bottoms of the tanks. They were not tanks sitting on a frame. Next, notice that the pedestal is all one piece. Tank bottom, side sills, truck pedestals, etc are all one big machined casting. And the center plate for the front truck is also part of that single casting. The trucked tender underframe also has the center plates for the trucks as part of the one large casting. These frames are not in any way interchangeable, for numerous reasons, most of which become painfully apparent from the photos in the Cyc. Besides that, how do you get 12 wheels (two 3-axle trucks) to carry the weight that is on a 14 wheel tender now? And another thing: there were rumors for decades that some turbine tenders were equipped with traction motors. Take a good look at a tender truck frame casting and tell us where there is room to install even 1 traction motor. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/16 07:33 by Realist. Date: 05/05/16 07:41 Re: UP Steam Auxiliary Tenders - why the change? Author: Realist According to several books, including Kratville's, all 20 FEF-1 tenders were built with 3-axle trucks.
The only variation was that 5 or so were built with Buckeye 3-axle trucks while the rest got GSC 3-axle trucks. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/16 10:27 by Realist. Date: 05/05/16 12:09 Re: UP Steam Auxiliary Tenders - why the change? Author: ddg Date: 05/09/16 18:48 Re: UP Steam Auxiliary Tenders - why the change? Author: 4489 Realist Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > As I have been told, the mods reduced the empty > weight of the car by around 7,500 pounds, while > increasing the capacity to somewhere North of > 30,000 gallons each. > > Somwhere about the same time period, the trucks > were rebuilt with all new springs, pins, bushings, > etc. And received new wheel sets with new roller > bearings, etc. > > The DL claims both cars are now worn out junk and > he will build one or two new cars to replace > these. > > Posted from Android Is there no end to this lunacy? |