Steam & Excursion > SP 4449's trip south to the World's Fair in 1984 -a question

I am finally (only 33 years later!) starting to edit a DVD of 4449's trip to Sacramento to LA in May 1984 on her way to New Orleans.  I shot this with super 8 film and stereo sound on a cassette recorder.  There is a run by at Bray CA (southwest of Klamath Falls) where 4449 is using her air horn  . . not her whistle . . . . . the next shot I got was at Grass Lake and she was using her whistle again . . . what would be the reason for that?  No diesel was in the consist (not until she had one coupled on the head end at Black Butte to descend down the grade into Dunsmuir).

Craig
http://mcmrailvideos.com/ 

spdaylight Wrote:
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> I am finally (only 33 years later!) starting to
> edit a DVD of 4449's trip to Sacramento to LA in
> May 1984 on her way to New Orleans.  I shot this
> with super 8 film and stereo sound on a cassette
> recorder.  There is a run by at Bray CA
> (southwest of Klamath Falls) where 4449 is using
> her air horn  . . not her whistle . . . . . the
> next shot I got was at Grass Lake and she was
> using her whistle again . . . what would be the
> reason for that?

Sometimes the late Brad S. Miller was making a specific recording in a prearranged location and he might have requested that ONLY the air horn be used for the recording. Doyle very rarely EVER used the air horn.

 No diesel was in the consist
> (not until she had one coupled on the head end at
> Black Butte to descend down the grade into
> Dunsmuir).
>
> Craig
> http://mcmrailvideos.com/ 

and when Doyle does use the air horn, whoever is on the receiving end knows they just did something very, very wrong.   Jack's answer is what we tell our ORHC visitors.   An interesting back story is that back in the operational days, SP corporate orderred the exclusive use of the air horn as a $ saving measure.........Arlen

asheldrake Wrote:
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> and when Doyle does use the air horn, whoever is
> on the receiving end knows they just did something
> very, very wrong.   Jack's answer is what we
> tell our ORHC visitors.   An interesting back
> story is that back in the operational days, SP
> corporate orderred the exclusive use of the air
> horn as a $ saving measure.........Arlen

I don't think so Arlen, however I sure would love to see such instructions in writing. The air horn was generally used exclusively along the coast and in the valley do to the fog, as the steam whistle, which was originally mounted up in the skyline caseing, just forward of the cab, and did NOT carry very well thru the fog. The steam whistle was generally used for crew signaling. Also, remember that BOTH the steam whistle AND the air horn were operated by two small brass levers, i.e. the steam whistle base had an air operated piston valve for supplying steam to the whistle.

Thanks Jack and Arlen . . as Paul Harvey used to say "Now you know the rest of the story" . . . will post the clip at Bray sometime this week  . . . 

Craig
http://mcmrailvideos.com/

old and "busy" or at least I think I am Jack....will look for the document/reference.   if one looks at movies of the 1940s you will hear the air horn versus steam whistle....and yes, it sounds terrible.   ARlen

In the east, NYC Niagaras were equipped with air horns ( located in front of the cab, high up, engineer's side).

I've talked to older fans, at the end of steam, who wnen waiting for trains, when they heard the horn -- took down their cameras ---- assuming it was a diesel loco that was coming.  
Only to have one of the Big 6000s, stroke by at high speed .... BAMP BAAMMP!!!!
Picture takers totally missing a great opportunity, and a great engine...

I have an early 'train sounds' recording of a 6000 sounding it's airhorn, at speed.....authentic, but boring...
i dearly wish that the NYC saved a Niagara for Ross & me to play with ..... Oh, well.....
[ Under 15 feet tall, 300 PSI, 46 tons of coal, 18,000 gallons water, 79" drivers, 6,000 HP, ALL Roller bearings ----- My Gawd, what an engine....]

​W.

Ross did get some BIG power operational...the 4449 & several Reading T-1s, and the C&O 614, not a bad record...

In September 1970, After the first successful unassisted assault up the Pennsy's Alleghany Grade, and Horseshoe Curve, someone wrote in the sand dust on 759's tender back: " WE DID IT!",  
To which I spelled out underneath,  "You bet your A.. WE DID!"

The Niagara air horn is visible in this poor shot, just forward of the cab.

---

I know I'm in the minority here, but I actually appreciate the sound of the air horn on the SP Daylight (and other streamlined steam trains). I understand that SP primarily used the air horn at grade crossings. I heard a couple of theories for this, one that was mentioned above (cutting through the fog), and another was image. The steam horn sounded a little old fashioned in the 40s to a railroad that was trying to promote a modern passenger train. Well, either way, I've only heard the air horn used once on 4449 - back in 1984 at Niles Tower. Got it on video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCOmGmpioRk&t=1s

danf Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know I'm in the minority here, but I actually
> appreciate the sound of the air horn on the SP
> Daylight (and other streamlined steam trains). I
> understand that SP primarily used the air horn at
> grade crossings. I heard a couple of theories for
> this, one that was mentioned above (cutting
> through the fog), and another was image. The steam
> horn

What is a "steam horn"? Remember the Daylights were equipped with an air horn and a steam whistle, both being operated by a small lever at the Engineer's position.

sounded a little old fashioned in the 40s to
> a railroad that was trying to promote a modern
> passenger train.

Actually the air horn would have sounded "more modern" since the various diesel powered "high speed, modern passenger trains" of the mid 1930s had air horns!

Well, either way, I've only heard
> the air horn used once on 4449 - back in 1984 at
> Niles Tower. Got it on video.
 

Does anyone remember the original Superman series..The beginning credits has what looks like a Daylight at speed Blowing the air-horn..In later episodes, I have seen a Diesel...'More powerful than a Locomotive"..bla bla bla..

I have a vivid memory of a sunny Saturday afternoon in September 1970, as a 15 year old standing hard against the fence on Horseshoe Curve with an 8mm wind-up movie camera in my hand as 759 marched that High Iron Company special up that grade and around the curve.  Remember hearing that "I think I can, I think I can" or was it "I know I can" for miles across the valley before the engine/smoke finally came into sight. 
My father, two of his friends and me drove through the night from Chicago (and I couldn't drive yet) to be there on Saturday.  759 walked up that grade with a full head of steam, never once lost her footing and popped off passing the crowd lining the fence.  I remember the Penn Central had the good sense not to cut diesels into the consist behind the canteen or to tie them onto the rear of the train, but a couple of geeps did follow about a half-mile behind just in case they were needed.  That Lima super power put on a fantastic show that day and Lima's engineering, coupled with the accomplished skills of the engine crew, showed the diesel crew they could have stayed home.   

Typo on my part. Meant steam whistle.

HotWater Wrote:
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> What is a "steam horn"?

[Attempt to revise and correct typos in original...]


Hi, Sierrawetern....

I am Wes Camp.
I had the great fortune to have become one of the key people that worked on the HICO loco team.
Ross was dynamic leader who supported us in our errors and encouraged us to reach heights that we didn't think we had in us.
One of the highlights of that friendship was firing for Ross, two trips up Horseshoe....

Here's some background about what was some background stories relating to your memory....

These are my memories, Ross has his experiences, so these are solely my memories....

A couple of months prior to the Horseshoe Excursions, Ross had arranged field meetings with the PennCentral managers in Harrisburg and Altoona, two separate divisions.  We met with PC Raod Foremen and the Division Superintendents. 
Ross and I rode the diesel cab of a PC passenger train, partly as an orientation of the right of way, and a way to scout out the route.

We met with the Harrisburg PC local officers, rode the train to Altoona, and met with the Division officers in Altoona.
PENNA had 'blue laws' backthen and public bars were closed---- it might have been a Sunday....
The two groups repaired to the local Elks Club, for dinner and drinks, varied types and alcohol was sold, since it was a private club.
During this meeting, both sides warmed to each other, as the dinner meeting progressed.

I was talking to the experienced road crews about the hill, while Ross was schmoozing the higher-ups.....
Years later, Ross told me that the Superintendent was adamant about dragging the 759 and Its train up the hill.
So, that there would be NO CHANCE of a "road failure"  & resulting in delaying the other traffic on the main that day.

Ross, negotiated a concession by getting the diesels moved to the rear of the train, and shoving.
Later, Ross made a wager with the the Superintendent, that the 759 could do the the Hill unassisted.
The wager involved a substantial cash amount.  That led Ross to propose that the diesel helpers stay back, and in case of a failure, the delay to other operations would be mitigated ----- since the helpers were close enough to be employed, if needed.

My guess is that the men respected each other, made a handshake and, thus, that agreement is what resulted during those trips.
759, all by herself & the diesels a mile back....

It was during that dinner, that the Road Foreman, whose name I forgot, told me about the 'physics' of the hill & the Curve.
He told me that about a half mile before entering the curve, west of Altoona, is a creek that crosses under the Main.
He called it 'Scotch Run'.   He said that point was the hardest part of the whole hill; if you get past Scotch Run, you will make the rest of the Hill --- all the way to Gallitzin, in good shape.

Soooo,  fast forward to September and the first day's assault of Horseshoe.  
The trip up from Harrisburg went well....
Ross and I went to the cab, the PC officers and crew were also there, including my friend, the Road Foreman who rode behind me as we departed.....He and the other PC members did the signal verifications, etc. as we marched up the Hill.

Its flat for about half a mile when you leave the Altoona Station, then the grade very visibly rises.   Ross really pounded the 759 as hard as he could, trying to get a good start and run at the Hill.  As I recall, we got the speed up to about 23 to 25 MPH.  As each trailing coach was dragged onto the grade, the train perceptibly slowed down.

Ross became alarmed, and as the 759 continued to lose speed, Ross placed his left hand on the Automatic brake handle, just in case....Right hand on the wide open throttle...... 

I crossed the cab, and told Ross to take his hand off the brake, we were going to MAKE IT, & we would be O.K......
Ross refocused, and concentrated on the task at hand....drive the train, and get to the top....

Several NKP fireman in ' 69 & '69, had taiught me the importance of carrying a really deep 'heel' ----- in the back of the firebox..
The heavy draft up the rear firebox sheet, burns the coal rapidly  down to bare gates....So to combat that reality, carry a very heavy heel in the back.   That mass of coal weight forces the larger portion of the draft up through the remaining 80% ---- which remains thin and free-breathing -------- is where the hot, 3,000 deg. F. fire is its hottest.  A thin, hot firebed is what makes the hottest fire and most steam

So, once the heel is built, simply keeping a steady flow of coal going to the thin part of the fire.--- much of the fines burn in mid-air, almost like an oil burner.... 

With a furious heavy draft, and a low driver RPM, making copious amounts of steam is very easy with a huge grate, like the 759 was built with.

So, as we thundered up the hill, our speed sank to a steady pace of 11 MPH,  and stayed there...the draft was immense, the heel,was rapidly burning down ----- several times during that assault i had to reduce the stoker jet pressure, and roll-in more coal on top of the big heel ----- since there is always air try to rush up the door sheet .  Under such continuous pounding that is what happens.   On, we slogged, at a steady 11MPH, we soon approached Scithc Run, we pounded right on by, at a steady 11 MPH pace....

Soon, we entered the region of the main part of the Horseshoe Curve. There was an immense crowd waiting, and I decided to put the safeties up, going around the crowd.....all the folks crowd instinctively understand the importance of safety valves and what it means when  the safeties are roaring ..... Thus,  I determined to get all three of the safeties UP, as we went by the crowd.  
I had the draft, I had the fire, plenty of water, a strong water pump, and I had Ross!

As, we continued on around the 'Curve, upwards towards MG Tower, I turned my hat around backwards, increased my concentration and soon I turned around to ask the Road Foreman:   " Let me know when we get to Scotch Run! "......
He grinned at the irony....we were about 3 miles past it,  up the Hill....

There's more...but I wanted to get this out...

ENJOY.

​W.


Not proofed, yet..2150 hrs....

 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/17 18:23 by wcamp1472.

Wes - absolutely awesome what you shared.  I love reading about your experiences!

Great reading Wes.  Great reading!  Thanks for the background stories.