Steam & Excursion > PRR No. 1361 - Pics from a recent visit in July 2017

... and a few "simple straight forward" questions, part II:
Muahahahaha!

Instructions for reading and responding to this thread, lol:

1) Look at the pretty pictures, move on.

2) Answer unanswered questions.

3) There is no 3rd option!


Photos first - and for the most part, and most of you, lol, the
inspiration for this PRR #1361 thread. These are from a July
visit to the Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum in Pennsylvania.

Enjoy the pics!

/Mitch

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OK - your still here? Lol.

Unanswered questions I had for no other reason than curiosity
and education:

With regards to the issue with the firebox - aka; the then "new"
but overlooked FRA regulations regarding the need to alter the
thickness of the firebox roof sheet and bolt spacing:

1) What would it take to fix the issue with (and, for now) ONLY,
with the firebox, to make it compliant? Yeah, yeah - it's been
discussed - need thicker sheets and different bolt placement but:

It seems quite a lot of restoration work has been successfully
completed - INCLUDING? ironically, replacement of the SIDE
FIREBOX SHEETS already (excuse me if my terminology is off, I
think we are all willing to learn something in the process).
It would seem it is ONLY the roof sheet at this point? Or, is
it that the "new" side sheets are not compliant? Which leads
to question 2.


2) This sounds vindictive and may prove unwise to answer? but
if it's known and sharable - what work was done during the 14
year restoration effort has been deemed unnecessary or done but
needed /needing to be redone?

Everyone claims those involved did a poor job - but no lone states
"why" other than perhaps? the single issue of the non-compliant
firebox roof sheets.

3) Total amount spent on restoration efforts between 1996 and
2010 - if I recall correctly, the time it spent at Steamtown.
This does not have to be down to the penny, but a ballpark number
with merit (and explanation) would be welcome.

4) Someone elected to update information over at WIKI in regards
to PRR #1361 stating restoration is IN progress and will result
in operation at designed pressures - aka; full speed operation.
ETA - 1 to 10 years. Any validity to this or perhaps just an
over anxious and optimistic Web surfer?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Railroad_1361

/Mitch



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/17 23:44 by Mgoldman.

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Are all of the pieces even in one location anymore?

Posted from Android

Doug Wetherhold
Macungie, PA

There were such high hopes for 1361 with her arrival at Steamtown, but it was not to be.
Ed K. cp Laurel Run

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It's not polite to disrespect the dead no matter what. This horse is long dead and has been given multiple funerals. Let it RIP.

Ross Rowland

It's easier to tan the hide with it off the carcass.
Continually beating a carcass will not do the trick...

Why the morbid, rehashing of a monument to "serial stupidity"?

Stupidity: "Repeatedly doing the same thing, over and over, expecting a different result!"


It's a monument to classic human foibles ---- related to not knowing what you're doing, and proceeding against all odds and common sense... down the path of errors. Napoleon departed Paris, in August, with a force of 600,000 men, cannons and horses -- headed for Moscow...he lost --- in bitter cold 30-below Zero winter.. He retreated & returned to Paris with 6,000 survivors...a 99% loss of life and material.
In 1939, Hitler sent his army off to Moscow with a huge force of men, machines and horses......only got as far as St Petersburg, Russia --- before he lost his entire army in a humiliating total surrender.....in the middle of a Russian winter....30- below ZERO temps, no food and no water...and in the sights of Vasily Zeitszef !
( "Those who do not remember history, are CONDEMNED to reapeat it!": George Santayana.).

Back to steamers...
Similar to the excercize of drilling tiny holes in the caps covering flexible staybolts heads ...why do that to more than one?
But folks have directed their crews to persevere, irregardless ...

We have myriad examples of steam engine disasters around us ---- since 1967... Gettysburg boiler explosion, burned out grates on 1286 in Wilmington,
Main line "tire" incidents, the sad saga of the EBT,, the AFT #1, the " oil burning" RDG 2100.... etc, etc...

Let the 1361 remain a monument to repeated, intentionally pursued foibles and repeated mistakes on top of a series of extremely poor decisions, assumptions about the Regs, etc...
It had one chance to be done RIGHT, and the "Powers that Be ", screwed it up, a multiple number of times, and they're still at it...".expecting a different result..."

Don't you join the Stupidity Party, too.

Wes C.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/17 18:14 by wcamp1472.

I think i will be dead and in the ground before this thing ever runs.

Seems to me these questions, or very similar ones, were posted a few months back.

But the then-OP was never willing to grasp the answers given, and kept rephrasing
and re-asking basically the same questions, to the point where it seemed he was
less interested in the answers than in arguing with the people who replied.

Realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Seems to me these questions, or very similar ones,
> were posted a few months back.
>
> But the then-OP was never willing to grasp the
> answers given, and kept rephrasing
> and re-asking basically the same questions, to the
> point where it seemed he was
> less interested in the answers than in arguing
> with the people who replied.

Funny,,,,,THAT is EXACTLY how I remember it also. He appears to be a professional debater, in my opinion.

Would it really be that difficult to paint the tender and get some Pennsylvania lettering on it? At least that portion of the project could be buttoned up and look presentable while they try to figure out the boiler quandary...and it would at least give the appearance of progress.
Realist and Hotwater, your memory is spot on, this thread is a complete rehash of this one
https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?10,4259189
and I don't think the answers have changed in the interim.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/17 20:04 by Finderskeepers.

Finderskeepers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Realist and Hotwater, your memory is spot on,
> this thread is a complete rehash of this one
> https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?10
> ,4259189 and I don't think the answers have changed
> in the interim.

Nor have they been answered...

Again, no one was obligated to participate past viewing newly shared
photos taken less than a month ago.

What is new is the information added to the Wiki site (see link above),
and discovery that perhaps not an entire new firebox would be needed,
but perhaps "only" the roof sheet. Unless someone can verify that the
custom built? side sheets are in fact non-compliant.

_________________________________________________________________________

In all sincerity, I happened to be in the area, to see
Everett's 2-6-0 No. 11 run and made a point to visit the
Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum to see PRR #1361.

I had pictures documenting part of her stay at Steamtown
and thought I'd carry the timeline further, for myself,
and for the enjoyment of others.

So - I am figuring some here on TO's might enjoy the
follow up pics, or just the pics for the sake of the
seeing the pics alone.

I've posted these pics to RP.net - not because I thought
they were "great photos", nor for "views" nor "fame", lol.
But to help continue and document the story for others.
Aside from pretty pictures - RP serves as a really decent
database - almost a "visual" easily searchable RYPN or TO's.
It's an interesting tour, searching "PRR 1361" by chrono-
logical order and seeing the timeline unfold in front of
your eyes.

So - in that respect, I hope those who clicked, enjoyed the
photos.


Realist, Wes, Ross and a few others provided some really good
insight, as did others. Others thanked me for the post, or at
least for the insight brought to light -for that, I, and some
here on TO's thank you.

And, no, I'm not a professional debater, instead, some on TO's seem
to be professional "spinners" attempting to derail the topic or take
it off course. It's at times as if I ask what one plus one is and some
seem intent on asking either "one of WHAT" or, "why does it matter?".
Hence, 50 responses, vs 5 or 6...

Wes - I though I had your interest piqued in regards to the firebox
side sheets but there was no follow up to "our" previous observations.
Specifically, since the side sheets were in fact replaced, it would seem
"only" a new roof sheet would be required to get the project on the
fast track, what with so much of the work already? completed. Safe to
assume, I suppose, that the "new" side sheets were in fact not compliant.
That would be 50% of the posed questions answered, if so.


/Mitch

Waitin' about 20 years now!....Not in my lifetime!!! I saw the elephant years ago!

Mitch,

I'm not the guy to ask about "why" ... The answers you seek are solved with 2 things:
MORE MONEY & and a new, 'professional', Form 4 -- by a credible source.

All that you have speculated on is eminently 'do-able'.
The impediments to further progress are the folks who's decision it is about their intents for the future.

Start a "go fund me" project, and see what happens... I suspect that any further monies will have the same fate as the coupla' $million that had pteviously gone to line others pockets.

Hey, I grew up in Long Branch. Used to hang out in Bay Head.... Took Box Brownie pics--- got cab rides in Camelbacks, Hotwater has done a lot more --- South Amboy, There's probably no bigger fans of K4s ..... But reality has both of them captured and held by their owners.

Go knock on their doors for the solutions to you quandary.

Ross showed the rest how to do it... Many locos have been restored following his example, many restored locos are now returned, stuffed and mounted.
He seriously intended to help the Dolts of Altoona... They're the folks that screwed-up the whole thing.

That's who can answer your questions--- it's their baby--- focus your questions on them ------ to complete what they started.

The rest of us are in the grandstand.... They're on their field--- the ball's in their glove ...

In my preference, the better efforts would be finding the best way to save the operable remnants of the EBT...

To me it's at greater risk, and potentially is a bigger loss..

W.

Posted from iPhone



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/17 03:49 by wcamp1472.

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mitch,
>
> I'm not the guy to ask about "why" ... The answers
> you seek are solved with 2 things:
> MORE MONEY & and a new, 'professional', Form 4 --
> by a credible source.
>
> W.
>
> Posted from iPhone

Always welcome your thoughts and insight, Wes.

At risk of being called a professional debater, lol, I
got the presumed answer to "why" during the first round,
I think. Why? I gathered it became a money pit deemed
in the hands of folks whom would continue to misappropriate
further funds.

The questions I posed above were simply "what".

(Sorry to repeat and rephrase - but what is the alternative
when so often, the feedback is unrelated to the questions?)

1) What would be necessary to complete the restoration
now - ie; is the fire box roof sheet the only real issue
at hand (as opposed to an entire new firebox considering
the side sheets have been fabricated and installed)?

1b) Were the newly fabricated firebox side sheets compliant
or - see question 2 below:

2) What work was done that was later discovered unnecessary,
in error, or needing to be replaced. I am not looking to
blame anyone, just curious. Maybe the thought is such info
is best kept "secret".

3) What was spent on the previous restoration attempt, 1996
to 2010. Was simply curious and thought the info would be
of benefit to others in the future (research, articles, and
history). I realize an exact figure would be open to debate
but a realistic ballpark from someone "in the know" or with
a link to the source would be welcome.

4) What is the deal with the Wiki post stating the restoration
is in progress?

So - how much money will it cost for those answers, lol?


I'd love to see PRR #1361 run - missed it first (and second)
time around. As much as I'd like to see it again, I'm not in
a position to take a lead on such a project, nor am I pushing
anyone to do so.

Just questions I hoped might find some answers - even if in part.


/Mitch



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/17 04:30 by Mgoldman.

Mitch...
Send me a PM with your preferred e-mail address...
No sense littering the message board with my rambling musings...

Wes

Posted from iPhone

You have to remember that PRR 1361 wasn't just a museum-sponsored restoration - it was a politically-sponsored animal from the very start.

You had two local politicians - State rep. Rick Geist - and US Rep. Bud Shuster (who held full transportation committee seniority) - that both had significant power to the state and federal sides and championed the restoration project for both community impact and political reasons. Both are retired out of office now. Their ability to channel funding remains the stuff of legend during that era.

The locomotive as a symbol of their district - rather than a pure engineering/mechanical/preservation exercise, haunts it to this day. Politically, it has been a symbol of the previous administrations as well.

This project left a lot of political, personal and professional damage in its wake.

This was the last article in the Altoona newspaper in June.... literally, 'who needs it?'
http://www.altoonamirror.com/news/local-news/2017/06/locomotive-quietly-moves-along/

Dead is dead already. Please Mr. Goldman find a different stick to stir the pot with....................PLEASE !!

Enough already !!!

Ross Rowland

Mitch, the last photos I saw of the interior of 1361's firebox showed that she did not have interior side sheets, only the exterior side sheets were applied. I do not know if they have the proper stay spacing or not. Taking into account that she needs a new crown sheet and roof sheet due to the stays being too far apart to meet current regs, that is the better part of an entirely new firebox. The picture below is the surgery that needs to happen, and it ain't gonna be cheap or done by non-professionals.
To see the surgery needed to fix this engine properly, have a look here at what Strasburg found restoring a G-5
http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=24417&start=75

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If those guys in Altoona had any brains they would ship the whole "KIT" to Strasburg RR and tell them to fix it. But we all know they wont. What an embarrassment for the state of Pennsylvania-(of which I am a resident) 611 is back, a Big Boy is under restoration 765 has been running for years 2926 is nearing completion and this locomotive sits in forlorn and rusting pieces after having $3 million dollars spend on it (yeah and i believe that figure is correct).