Steam & Excursion > UP 4014's Restoration

If you were running the show on 4014's restoration, is there anything you would do differently than what's currently being done?
Wes brought up something in a response to another subject concerning 4014's drivers and crankpins. He said that there's no reason to replace so much when there's nothing necessarily wrong with the original parts outside of just needing a clean up and that 4014 was likely never going to pull another train on the order of what it did back in the 40's and 50's and therefor it wasn't needed. If UP at some point plans for 4014 to pull a long train again and use it from time to time to do so, would all of this replacement be warranted at this point or could the original parts just still be cleaned up and reused? I've been reading the posts Wes has left here on this forum for a few years now and he knows what will work from what won't when it comes to steam and this question I'm posting is more not knowing on my part than anything.

apollo17 Wrote:
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> If you were running the show on 4014's
> restoration, is there anything you would do
> differently than what's currently being done?
> Wes brought up something in a response to another
> subject concerning 4014's drivers and crankpins.
> He said that there's no reason to replace so much
> when there's nothing necessarily wrong with the
> original parts outside of just needing a clean up
> and that 4014 was likely never going to pull
> another train on the order of what it did back in
> the 40's and 50's and therefor it wasn't needed.
> If UP at some point plans for 4014 to pull a long
> train again and use it from time to time to do so,
> would all of this replacement be warranted at this
> point or could the original parts just still be
> cleaned up and reused? I've been reading the posts
> Wes has left here on this forum for a few years
> now and he knows what will work from what won't
> when it comes to steam and this question I'm
> posting is more not knowing on my part than
> anything.

I rarely would EVER disagree with Wes, but concerning the running gear issues previously discussed, I do disagree. Under the management of Steve Lee, all new tires and crankpins were installed on 3985. Now, lets forget about that famous APL double stack train, and I can tell you that having fired 3985 a LOT over the years, that there were quite a number of cases where 3985 was taxed to her horse power limit on "simple excursion passenger trains". Given that there are some VERY nice long grades throughout the UP system, there have been any number of times that I have encountered when firing 3985, that I could maintain 280 psi (the max working boiler pressure on the 3900 class), after her firebox air intake had been much improved, with the Engineer operating at full throttle with the correct cut-off. We were neither accelerating, nor decelerating, but maintaining a steady speed, for almost an hour. Lets realize that making full horse power doesn't necessarily have to be slugging along at 15 MPH.

Given the obvious budget that has been provided for the entire 4014 "project", I personally think it more than prudent to have all new tires and all new crankpins, which includes a PROPER quartering job on all the drives. Also, lets not forget that the UP Cheyenne steam shop does NOT have that machining capability, nor fully knowledge/experienced Machinists to perform such work, either.

Whether 4014 is ever taxed like 3985 was during her short career, it sure doesn't seem logical to me, that restrictions would have to be placed on 4014 in the future, so as to prevent any normal stresses she was really designed for in the first place. You never know what could happen in "excursion service"! Remember the case of 844 having to push that stalled 10,000+ ton freight train over Archer Hill.

Apollo17...

You are posing the critical questions that all,need to be addressed before undertaking this kind of project.
Critical thinking is a key component to the restoration effort, like this.

I'm pleased that folks are asking the fundament type questions .... engines are easy to understand----- including the basics of locos needs and operations...
Asking all sorts of questions leads to understanding....understanding leads to clarity, and clarity leads to forward progress.

The people resources that abound on T.O. are wondrous, but also they tend to be reticent, and avoid attention.
So, no questions about steamers are 'stupid questions' ---- They all have a kernel of truth , at the core.

My favorite question from folks, is when they say : " I'm confused!!!"
Confusion arises when a long-held belief runs into a fresh new view point... Upon clearing-up the cinfusion, that person's life will be changed, forever...
WOW...

It's fun when it happens .....it's what I like the best about folks asking questions ...

Keep them coming...
Many have no answers, yet
Some are easily explained..

And some, we all get to see the "answers" & the outcomes, as the experiment is unveiled..
They're fun, too.

Wes

Hotwater's discussion goes to the very heart of the issue.

Steve Lee's crew, Scott Lindsay's team ---- all had reasoned and well supported facts to make reasoned decisions about how to proceed on thier projects..
That's a lot different and well-reasoned approach.....from the past record of the current crew.

Lee's record is the kind of analysis and decision process that leads to progress.
No remote observer ( like me) can spout opinions from miles away, that have any validity.
The folks doing the work are always in the best position to call the shots....

But, even when the 3985 was returned to service, their focus was on the safe return to operation, not tinker with stuff just to see how it works,

There's no comparison between the two crews---- but, also Lee had well experienced U.P. journeymen & skilled workers who could guide the
young crew as they progressed.
Lee sought ideas, he listened, and he led his team.....with skill and encouragement.

That's a big difference!!!

Thanks, Jack. You made a large distinction. Lee's team of folks was TOP DRAWER...None is better.
Thank you for your support of their work...back when it counted..

Wes.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/17 19:39 by wcamp1472.

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hotwater's discussion goes to the very heart of
> the issue.
>
> Steve Lee's crew, Scott Lindsay's team ---- all
> had reasoned and well supported facts to make
> reasoned decisions about how to proceed on thier
> projects..
> That's a lot different and well-reasoned
> approach.....from the past record of the current
> crew.
>
> Lee's record is the kind of analysis and decision
> process that leads to progress.
> No remote observer ( like me) can spout opinions
> from miles away, that have any validity.
> The folks doing the work are always in the best
> position to call the shots....
>
> But, even when the 3985 was returned to service,
> their focus was on the safe return to operation,
> not tinker with stuff just to see how it works,
>
> There's no comparison between the two crews----
> but, also Lee had well experienced U.P.
> journeymen & skilled workers who could guide the
> young crew as they progressed.
> Lee sought ideas, he listened, and he led his
> team.....with skill and encouragement.
>
> That's a big difference!!!
>
> Thanks, Jack. You made a large distinction. Lee's
> team of folks was TOP DRAWER...None is better.
> Thank you for your support of their work...back
> when it counted..
>
> Wes.

I agree 100% and Steve willing to listen besides running things, that shows you why he was such a popular boss to work for, Ed on the other hand? Don't ask!

To echo what Wes said, the original 1980 restoration of 3985 benefitted from a larger talent pool of active and retired UP employees who represented a rather substantial pool of institutional knowledge than what the Cheyenne community, let alone any other "native" railroad community has to offer today. Hence the need to farm out more work than 30-40 years ago.

TG

Posted from Android

Thank you all for a stimulating discussion. I learn more every time I read them.

Posted from iPhone

My thought is that the current crew wants 4014 to start out with all new running gear and parts. And I suppose as long as UP is willing to provide the funding, then why not. When we looked at 4004 back in 1977 we quickly realized that the locomotive had a lot of wear on it since its last class 3 overhaul. It was going to take a lot more than our group could finance or even complete with the tools we had. And so it was the 3985 sitting in the parking lot next to the depot that caught our attention. It had very few miles on it after its class 3 overhaul. And, it had been stored in the roundhouse for some time away from the elements as well. What more likely candidate for restoring an articulated locomotive on the UP than this venerable ole gal. And so the story began. Three years later the 3985 was on the rails representing the UP as the largest operating steam locomotive in the US at that time. It, with the care and maintenance of the Steam program crew, had a long period of performance (1980-2010) of which I was proud to be a part of for 13 years.

Bob Krieger
Cheyenne, WY

Bob's a 100@% right, if the UP is willing to pay for a "frame-off" resto including drivers, pins and springs, more power
to them. Hopefully it's a sign of a long term commitment to a steam program.

Out

I want to see the rotisserie when they do the frame off of 4014. Just like the auto restoration shows. Right?
I'm sure than when I was 1522's CMO people got tired of me asking questions and trying to do my due diligence before turning a wrench. I had some damned good people that let me pick their brains and I was very conservative about fixing something that wasn't broke.
A disadvantage we had was not having the ability to do like GCRY, UP and Strasburg. Whatever we did, we had to wait for a trip to see how well it worked. I would have loved to be able to fire up and run 50 miles on our own RY to confirm repairs and adjustments.

I think everyone has lost sight of the motives here:

With 844, complain as much as possible about alleged past shoddy workmanship and materials. Cause problems, then spend a fortune and take years, so that by the time it's done, the big bosses have forgotten why (or never knew) exactly why it was "needed" in the first place.

With 3985, again wail about shoddy workmanship and materials and make them believe it will cost orders of magnitude more than the millions dumped into 844 between 2012 and 2016, so they will not want to go there.

Then spend even more extravagantly on 4014 to try and make it perfect. Because you will not be able to blame anyone else if it has problems, but then keep loads and speeds down in hopes nothing bad happens.

When it's all said and done, tell them you need even more money for 3985 than you went through on both the others, just to correct the errors of the earlier guys. Knowing full well that after having spent $8-$10 million on those two they may have to spend that much more on 3985.

What do you think Omaha HQ's answer would be to that?

And that is one way to bury 3985 for good and make your assertion that it would never run again come true.

I haven't forgot Realist, that's why I'm still on boycott!

Realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think everyone has lost sight of the motives
> here:
>
> With 844, complain as much as possible about
> alleged past shoddy workmanship and materials.
> Cause problems, then spend a fortune and take
> years, so that by the time it's done, the big
> bosses have forgotten why (or never knew) exactly
> why it was "needed" in the first place.
>
> With 3985, again wail about shoddy workmanship and
> materials and make them believe it will cost
> orders of magnitude more than the millions dumped
> into 844 between 2012 and 2016, so they will not
> want to go there.
>
> Then spend even more extravagantly on 4014 to try
> and make it perfect. Because you will not be able
> to blame anyone else if it has problems, but then
> keep loads and speeds down in hopes nothing bad
> happens.
>
> When it's all said and done, tell them you need
> even more money for 3985 than you went through on
> both the others, just to correct the errors of the
> earlier guys. Knowing full well that after having
> spent $8-$10 million on those two they may have to
> spend that much more on 3985.
>
> What do you think Omaha HQ's answer would be to
> that?
>
> And that is one way to bury 3985 for good and make
> your assertion that it would never run again come
> true.

The one fortunate thing is Ed Dickens cannot possibly last forever someday they will bring in someone else or god forbid shut the whole thing down. 3985 will one day be in someone else hands and at that time we can hope for a correct assessment.

jethat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The one fortunate thing is Ed Dickens cannot
> possibly last forever someday they will bring in
> someone else or god forbid shut the whole thing
> down. 3985 will one day be in someone else hands
> and at that time we can hope for a correct
> assessment.

Let's see if UP corporate can figure out the game that' ED is playing.

What's at risk here is that if ED is creating the "making everything perfect" illusion to bury the 3985 for good as Realist asserts, he might become a victim of his own overconfidence and miss the deadline on restoring the 4014 in time for May 2019. It's not the first time he's screwed up, if you use 844 as an example.

My interpretation of Wes Camp's opinions in other threads regarding the work being done at Strasburg is that ED is lacking the sense of urgency. It's one thing when the previous UP Steam crew restored the 3985, where they weren't racing against a deadline. He doesn't have that luxury of time here.

When Bob and the guys got 3985 back in action in the early 80s, they did it the right way too, not changing things just because "It doesn't look right to me!"