Steam & Excursion > Slope Back Tenders. Why?

Been meaning to ask this for a long time.

Most 0-4-0, 0-6-0, many 0-8-0, and other engines used in switching service had 'em.

I've always heard that the reason for slope back tenders was to give the engineer visibility of a brakeman on the rear footboard of the tender.

I don't believe it.

I've reviewed drawings of several such engines, and find that this argument doesn't compute. An examples of such an engines is illustrated. This is the best case I could find, and it still doesn't work. The purple line represents a person of average height with his hand raised to 7 feet above the footboard to give a signal. The thin black line from the cab window to the top of the purple line represents the best case of the line of sight of an engineer looking back for a signal, and he cannot see the switchman, as the coal board is in the way. Others had even higher coal boards. It would be far easier for both the switchman and the engineer to simply give and take signals along the side of the tender, just as they would do with rectangular tenders.

So, have any of you out there worked with slope back tenders? Does it assist visibility? If so, what am I missing? Otherwise, why have slope back tenders?

-Larry Doyle

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There is a picture of the Baldwin-built K-27's on The Blackstone History of the D&RGW with a slope back tender! Is dated 1905! I believe they were soon converted to regular tenders, more likely than not when they were converted to simple expansion from as-built compounds!

Good question. All I can find in online old books, is that it is better vision for the cab crew. But like you said, full load of coal, or wood, you just can’t see.

Posted from iPhone

You can see a man standing on the foot boards on the rear of the tender from the cab.

from the web..."sloped back tenders were often used for locomotives in yard switching service, because they greatly improved the engineer's ability to see behind the locomotive when switching cars. The reduced water capacity was not a problem, as the tender's water tank could be frequently refilled."

Some engines had narrow fuel tanks or boxes to facilitate visibility to the rear, I presume the thinking being that they would never have far to go to refuel as opposed to road engines where fuel range was a leading design criteria.

Here is a guess.....on a passenger train the conductor or brakeman could climb up the tender while the train was in motion to get to the cab....(Then they found out that it made it easier for Butch and Sundance to get there too....).

SP liked to use "sausage" tenders for switching visibility.

I Agee with LarryDoyle...

Most of the time, while backing, the engineer is sitting with his back against the window sill, leaning out the cab, bending his back over the sill.
That allows him to operate the throttle and the brake, as he slows to make the coupling. Once coupled he tugs at the car(s) “ give them a stretch “...
Most often he has to use two hands to operate the reverse lever, then settles to the backwards-lean position.

( often times crews had personal,
padded back-boards that they carried from engine to engine. It had leges to fit over the cab sides—- and gave extra support to the lumbar portion of the back)

He changes position to operate the reverse lever. This is where the screw reverse became really cumbersome —- especially when the ‘pin’ndidn’t drop...
He also can look forwards, up the track, occasionally.
Sitting that way, leaning backwards, the head is even lower looking along the tender side, watching for hand signals of the rider.
Many times the rider dismounts just before making a coupling ....and slowly brings the loco to the car, or maybe he stops the move & adjusts the knuckle
on the intended pick-up.

Yard crews also might be further away making the joint(s) and harder to see..

In all the above scenarios, the engineer is leaning backwards taking signals from ground crews, sometimes there was a brakeman on the roof walks of a cut of cars, standing giving hand signals from a location several car-lengths away.

In all the daily positions, above, the slope-back tender is of NO advantage.
Even diesel switchers, with no renders behind, required the “backwards lean”.

Camelbacks were mostly driven from a sitting position on the windowsill....since the hot boiler was so close to the windowsill.
An engineer almost never wedged himself down into that tiny seat...confined to looking forward out the open cab door.
Never happened...very hard to clearly see lineside block signals, etc...

So, slope backs served no functional purpose, except to amuse the owners of electric trains, down on mom’s rugs...

W.


( Years ago, a NKP engineer ( Conneaut) gave me a steel tube extension handle that he carried, engine to engine. He used the extension handle to clamp onto the independent brake handle, that extentend the original stubby handle closer to his reach, especially if leaning out the cab, looking backwards.
It is about 12” to 15” inches long...

The handle extension was made by the shop guys, fitted it with a repurposed yellow plastic screwdriver handle, for the end, and a thumb-screw for the brake handle...

He used that every day, and gave it to me for safe keeping and future use...
. I treasure the thought and all the memories many crews gave me there’re oersonal, daily use helpers— for many uses..)


To be proofed, yet...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/18 02:39 by wcamp1472.

Thank you Wes! I swear you and others should write a book....

Posted from iPhone

I have not worked on a slope back tender, but my suspicion is that, along with a narrowed coal bunker, it would give you improved visibility to see the environment on the ground maybe 150 feet back better as you are moving and switching in a busy yard.Just as a slightly tapered boiler lets you see across both rails farther down the track, any slight improvement in a crew's ability to see workers or obstructions or rolling cars as one moves through a yard, particularly as a light engine reverse movement would increase safety to some extent. A firemen on the deck tending to his fire would be able to see a bit better from his side of the engine as well. In other words, the increased visibility would not be for coupling on as much as for engine movement.

I think this Minnesota Transfer engine with a narrow coal space clearly illustrates what Ed Selinsky posted.

-LD

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The New York Central even had tenders like that on switchers (even some H-5 Mikados), but they were not slope-backed.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com


LarryDoyle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think this Minnesota Transfer engine with a
> narrow coal space clearly illustrates what Ed
> Selinsky posted.
>
> -LD

One of these days the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society may have an operating Wabash 0-6-0 with a sloped back tender (B-7 Class) and you might be able to test your hypothesis.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com

wabash2800 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One of these days the Fort Wayne Railroad
> Historical Society may have an operating Wabash
> 0-6-0 with a sloped back tender (B-7 Class) and
> you might be able to test your hypothesis.
>
> Victor A. Baird
> http://www.erstwhilepublications.com

Ditto WP 165 at Portola.

Having been on and run a few 0-6-0s with slope back
tenders, it DOES improve the visibility of a man on
the rear footboard giving hand or lantern signs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/18 19:41 by Realist.

I think the PRR 0-6-0 at Williams Grove PA has one too.

LarryDoyle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Been meaning to ask this for a long time.
>
> Most 0-4-0, 0-6-0, many 0-8-0, and other engines
> used in switching service had 'em.
>
> I've always heard that the reason for slope back
> tenders was to give the engineer visibility of a
> brakeman on the rear footboard of the tender.
>
> I don't believe it.
>
> I've reviewed drawings of several such engines,
> and find that this argument doesn't compute. An
> examples of such an engines is illustrated. This
> is the best case I could find, and it still
> doesn't work. The purple line represents a person
> of average height with his hand raised to 7 feet
> above the footboard to give a signal. The thin
> black line from the cab window to the top of the
> purple line represents the best case of the line
> of sight of an engineer looking back for a signal,
> and he cannot see the switchman, as the coal board
> is in the way. Others had even higher coal
> boards. It would be far easier for both the
> switchman and the engineer to simply give and take
> signals along the side of the tender, just as they
> would do with rectangular tenders.
>
> So, have any of you out there worked with slope
> back tenders? Does it assist visibility? If so,
> what am I missing? Otherwise, why have slope back
> tenders?
>
> -Larry Doyle

The line you drew is too high, unless the engineer is
riding with his head firmly planted on the cab ceiling.

Also, most have coal bunkers much narrower than the
rest of the tender, which also helps. The switchman
on the footboard will be giving his signals higher
than his head anyway, probably.

LarryDoyle , if the engineer, would have to have been a tall , muscular engineer...

Standing tall, looking backwards ( on this engine) would have meant being a contortionist to reach, and operate the brake handles, the throttle and the reverse lever —- especially a manual reverse lever for a Stephenson valve gear. (Known for strong “backwards force” action — once the reverse latch was opened,
while moving under steam, the lever was susceptible to lurching out of the engineer’s hands....or pulling him violently forwards in a crowded cab, or pinning him suddenly to the back wall of the cab)

Switching maneuvers require continuous manipulations of the controls, under the directions from the ground crew.
Until the common use of handi-talkie radios, most common communications with ground crews were by hand signals, or lanterns , at night.
So, the most common posture was seated and often leaning backwards, out the window, and looking leftwards, while seated.

So I agree, the slope back was definitely of dubious value relating to “improved visibility”...

But, I have no earthly idea of a reasonable explanation for the slope backs..

Thanks...

W.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/18 13:18 by wcamp1472.