Steam & Excursion > I agree with Todd - re: the tone of some posts on T.O.

Todd is right.
This space should be about civil discourse, not about personal attacks.
The past is gone, it’s never coming back. Both sides of the story of U.P’s recent steam ‘history’ have spent too much type-bangin’ about the past, crews’ behaviors and slinging blame-mud.

We, on TrainOrders , are an intelligent, literate crowd. Let’s raise the level of discourse on this site that provides a reliable resource for folks’ curiosity....
We, as participants, must act responsibly —— and that includes old-fashioned values like courtesy, understanding, and patience.
The first ‘shots’ might have been questionable regarding the facts, I don’t know, I wasn’t there.
Maturity dictates that responses be stifled, and left out there without responding.

Together we are on the dawn of a New and exciting time: the rebirth of the 4014.
Ed is the leader, but also the target ...
That comes with the territory....he, like all leaders has supporters and detractors. The experienced former leaders of loco restorations of the past, have responsibility to refrain from emotional commenting about new leaders and their styles. They will make mistakes, people make errors and stupid screw-ups.

Guess WHAT?
That is common to ALL human behavior....we are condemned to repeat past mistakes, if we fail to learn from the lessons of the past....that is the risk of living.
A holy Man, coming upon a stoning about to take the life of a sinner, stopped the act —- by telling the crowd that the person WITHOUT sin, be the one to cast the first stone...

Put the stones down.
And here’s the hard part: embrace the ‘target’ and love her for being human. We are all on the same path, just at different parts of it...

Years ago, I had the honor and good fortune to be around for the decision process in helping to decide the Steam motive power for the AFT.
After the arduous journey, in 1969, with Ross’s Golden Spike Centennial Limited, we had run the whole trip fighting what appeared to be ‘bad coal’.
It was during that trip, before Watergate and political chaos, that Ross, reacting to the enthusiasm of the spontaneous crowds across ou path — to dream about a nation-wide trip....

Thus, was born the idea of the AFT...
Following our ‘bad coal’ experience,& the 759. I realized that the Greater part if the AFT trip, as it unfolded in the planning stages—- was across the vast spaces of our continent. Pushing a coal burner over those rail across vast prairies and relentless mountains, made me know that we could NOT do that again using coal burners....

I found out about the Daylights from books and railfan’s movies —- from the “Daylight Era”.
I was smitten.... and began to seek out the possibilities ....
I had NO experience with oily burners, but, figured we could learn....
As the polical turmoil of the early 1970s erupted, I was opposed to the record and the behavior o the then President....
Soon, Ross had encouraged the President’s daughter and her husband to be Honorary Chairs for the AFT.

Other, political events drew the AFT closed and closer to the big mess in the government.....Ross struggled to find a sponsor to ignite the passions that we needed. The head of PepsiCo, caught Ross’s passion and agreed to get the worthy project moving.... I was not amused.

My own internal disappointment about the direction of the AFT, led me to abruptly quit and storm off.

I was give the rare chance to meet with the managers that Pepsi folks insisted upon to bring managerial skill to getting the project on track and on target quickly.... I was invited to give a presentation justifying my reasons for using the 4449, currently in a park in Portland, OR.

I was successful in getting the new managers to back that idea. BUT, they knew NOTHING about Steamers, but they LOVED the Day,ights in my presentation..... Later, I was offered the job of doing the Locomotives.... With the then current poisonous political attitude, I was reluctant to take in that new assignment....especially with political background managers that I felt I could not trust. I declined the job offer.

But in so doing, I knew that there was only ONE way my Dream of the Daylight would become a reality.

Conneaut, Ohio—— the home if our Genius & Boilermaker, Joe Karal, and his protégée, Doyle McCormack.
I told the management that the ONLY person in the country tgat co get their engine choice to become a reality, was Doyle.

The pieces fell into place, Doyle and Joe went west ...and the rest is history.

So, it’s good that I got out of the way, and kept my rotten attitude from polluting the attempt to resurrect the 4449.....Dole brought the High Iron Company’s
“ CanDo” attitude to the project, he was a believer and soon manyothers became believers, too. The greatest dream of my life was to get the 4449 Running.

I was in no mental shape to allow that to happen.... the LAST thing our High Iron Crew needed was a sour, cynical, uninspired cynic at the lead.
My psyche somehow told me to get out of the way, and let someone who REALLY wants to DO the 4449, get the chance to be Livin’ the Dream.
Doyle made my dream, come true. I’m deeply indebted to Doyle and his wonderful, funny, confident leadership style.

So why the story?

Because, we are in a similar National situation, the U.P. and the Golden Spike still represent the unification of the 48 contiguous states...into one country that we all love. The steam loco that comes the closest to becoming THE American Locomotive, is the 4014.
We’re counting on you, Ed !

Ed is the guy in charge of getting it done, if you, on T.O., can’t help in that effort, —- get out of the way and let others do it !
As in my experience, they’ll do a BETTER JOB, anyway😃

So, let’s all get behind Todd, raise our contributory attitude and get ready for another UNION PACIFIC GOLDEN SPIKE Celebration.
Ed deserves to enjoy that experience, to stumble into traps of his own making and to work them out —- he gets to face all the risks, errors and solutions, as well as the successes.

I hope Ed gets to welcome Ross into the Cab of the HOT 4014...that would be a fitting tribute to the Founder of HICO, the AFT and so many of our ensuing, operating Steamers that he has inspired....including the 3985 and the 4014..

I don’t know how well the oil-conversion of 4014 will go,
I suspect it will be marginal at best and in need of improvements.....Ed is up to the task, and 4014 will be his instructor.
We’ll see if Ed is given a diploma by his teacher.

I’ve replied to Todd, and among other things I said was that the restoration of the 4014 would result in a torrent of digital storming about the loco, the restoration and the celebration..... that he’d better get ready for the waves.
Personally, I can’t wait,

But, Todd is right to want to control the tenor and quality of the way we treat each other.
Let’s us ALL help Todd, and Ed, to all sleep better at night, and prepare to introduce BIG BOY to America, the war baby that demonstrated:
“America can do it ALL.. !!!”

Life’s up-coming REAL events and storms will provide all the loco drama we need.
The old adage about ..” say nothing at ALL.” is appropriate here...

Wes



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/18 01:54 by wcamp1472.

Wes, your comment about "bad coal". Can you expand on that? I thought that coal was pretty good all over the east but then, I don't really have any direct knowledge of it.

There’s a story behind that...and what I’ve learned, since ....

I’ll explan, later..

At the core is the old adage: “A bad fireman always blames the coal”...

W.

Well said. I understand the bitterness of the former crew. I used to work for wells Fargo and i am still bitter about my time there. Tell your stories if asked like i do, but in the end i and they need to move forward. Hopefully the new crew has learned from their mistakes and can make the best of it. But if they continue to fill the boiler with mud, i think it is also fair to call out those continued mistakes..

Posted from Android

Yes, the locos are very good at accurately reflecting the quality of the care they receive.
You cannot abuse a steamer, without it’s getting even... abuse leaves clues...

Hopefully, the abuse of running the crown-sheet dry of cooling-water never occurs...that mistake is often fatal...recent occurance and an ever-present threat.

W.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/18 16:26 by wcamp1472.

Wes,

A personal thank-you for posting your comments. Life is full of positives and negatives, but as you said, we must continue to move forward. The clock never stops and time is short (as both you and I know!!) I remember the past, but look forward in anticipation that I may see videos of a Big Boy in steam again. Hey, maybe even a T1!!!

Ohhhhhh.... Wes.... That is so beautiful I was in tears at the end. Thank you for your humility and honesty. And I am beyond grateful that you fell in love with the 4449.

I am glad you got angry and stormed off the AFT, because.... that led you to name Doyle as The Man For The Job of restoring the 4449, and so it was done.

I agree with what you said and with Todd's polite request.

Thank you, Wes.

Thank you to all who wrote...
And especially Margaret...

Because. of you, I felt that I wanted let Todd know that many times we read intently, and express many opinions...
I recognize what Todd was concerned about the way we tend to drift into dangerous waters....

I wanted Todd to understand that many of us feel very protective of TrainOrders.
That we enjoy his generally “hands-off” approach.

Folks like you are important to that superior approach: to both the RR subject posts, and related opinions and views.

Thank you all, for keeping this site intelligent and informative, historical, and yes, many times: humorous😃
You are all special to me.

Thank you.

Wes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/18 01:37 by wcamp1472.

I'm just amazed at how many people get their whole day ruined for them just because somebody on the internet says something they don't like, or conflicts with their teddy bears and rainbows views of the world. Sometimes the truth is ugly, and sometimes the truth HURTS. 95% of the ruckus was by people with zero direct knowledge of the situation and people involved trying to argue with people who DID, mainly because they didn't want to consider that there might in fact just be an ugly old truth out there somewhere. We are raising an entire generation of people in this country that simply cannot deal with any view that conflicts with their own world view and they simply go to pieces instead of putting on their big boy pants and getting down to work. Was some of the content of the UP steam conversations mean spirited and unnecessary? Probably, but in the big scheme of things, SO WHAT? If you can't either choose not to read it, or to read it and not let it bother you, then I don't know how to help you. Just remind me to never go into a fox hole with you. There. I've said my piece. something I think I'm entitled to since I pay to be here too.

It was mentioned that one gentleman thought all coal was about the same back east. Actually there are various grades of coal along with different types. As an example, The US War Board diverted a number of UP Challengers to the DRGW and upon use they discovered they didn't operate well so they ended up on the Clinchfield Railroad back east. What it was is that all railroads designed their fireboxes and drafts to handle the type and grade of coal from their supply source. The UP Challengers didn't burn well on the DRGW coal.
So when we hear complaints about how poor or great a locomotive ran, we need to keep these factors in mind along with the capabilities of the engine crews.

Bob Krieger
Cheyenne, WY

Finally! An end to all the peevish carping against an individual who’s been charged to manage the complex undertaking to sustain historic functioning machines Union Pacific has placed great value in. Where the criticism really got weird is when a few posters got their knickers twisted while the steam shop was being restored by removing its false ceiling.

I've been critical of Ed in the past on this website, but recently I decided my treatment of him, use of unkind nicknames, etc., as someone I don't even know personally said more about my character than it did his, and I decided to stop.

Wes leads the way. d

Thanks Bob. I knew that anthracite is hard coal in the east but otherwise I knew little else.

Oh yes I have heard about the "rosebud" coal NP burned and the lignite in much of Texas and the bad stuff in Oklahoma.

tomstp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks Bob. I knew that anthracite is hard coal
> in the east but otherwise I knew little else.
>
> Oh yes I have heard about the "rosebud" coal NP
> burned and the lignite in much of Texas and the
> bad stuff in Oklahoma.

Yes some of the railroads that burned the lignite referred to it as burning "dirt".
A prime example is merely to look at the size of the fireboxes on the UP versus the NP Challengers. The NP's were so much larger in order to get the same heating capability in the locomotive due to the coal that they burned.

Bob Krieger
Cheyenne, WY

I agree that things need to be toned down, I have previously stated my feelings regarding the leader of U.P. steam. As Wes has stated the rebirth of the 4014 is on the horizon. Ed is in charge of making it happen regardless of how any of the rest of us feel about it.
To the old crew- Steve, Bob, Jack, Lynn (RIP) and all the other folks involved, thank you for all of your work and dedication over the years, without you guys there would be no steam program today. There is nothing that Ed Dickens can say or do that can change all you have put into the program.
I sincerely hope Ed can make things work and be successful, after all, the future of the program now rests on his shoulders, at least for the foreseeable future.

Posted from Android

Wes, for what it's worth, Doyle speaks highly of you when talking about the origins of the AFT and the rebirth of the '49- he gives you a lot of credit as a mentor.

Your back story about Ross' experience with bad coal explains why he went through so much trouble to make sure this didn't happen with the T-1 on the AFT.  All the coal used by the Freedom Train came from one mine, crushed to his specification.  It was delivered in a complex chirography of rotating hopper cars- cars were waiting at specified locations for the AFT, and when emptied were rushed back to the mine for reloading and forwarding.  I think there were about 6 hoppers in the rotation.  If the host RR could not guarantee delivery where needed, then the hopper was added to the AFT behind the crew car and taken along.
SR

as we tell the visitors to the Oregon Rail Heritage Center, we have this building and visitor experience because one Wes Camp fell in love with the art deco 4449 and promoted it's use on the AFT and we are here also because a Doyle McCormack was chosen to lead the 4449 AFT restoration effort and he and his wife chose to return to Oregon following the AFT romp...........sure, many others have put in thousands of hours but these two fellows were pivotal factors and the driving forces.....our ORHC AFT exhibit attempts to tell this story.......
in my less than humble opinion, we wouldn't just be back in the Brooklyn Roundhouse...we would be back gathering rust at Oaks Park......instead of celebrating 60 years of City of Portland ownership of their three locos. Arlen

dpudave Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wes leads the way. d


Yes ... Wes, and Rangers, lead the way! :-)

Lots of wise words from Wes, here. I hope that over the next year, a time of great interest and fun for steam enthusiasts of all sorts, that he, Bob, and those other humble railroad men that love these great machines, will continue to offer their invaluable insights as we witness UP 4014.

Thank you, Union Pacific, for helping to keep our American history alive. Good luck to the UP steam shop crew.

(And thank you, Todd, for your action here, keeping Trainorders great)

Jim Lee
Lake Hopatcong, NJ

I agree totally, we don't need messages with bad tones.

Pathetic Bob