Steam & Excursion > Steam on the edge of the world

Some recents posts were discussing the pros and cons of all the attetion the Colorado narrow gauge lines seem to be getting.  For some reason I was reminded of these images.  Both the D&S and C&TS are spectuacular, each in their own way. 

JBWX

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Why Keystone1 would call it the "damned" narrow guage and complain about it is beyond me. It's magical and both places keep the past alive more authentically than any mainline excursions could ever hope to.

1976 Wrote:
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> Why Keystone1 would call it the "damned" narrow
> guage and complain about it is beyond me. It's
> magical and both places keep the past alive more
> authentically than any mainline excursions could
> ever hope to.

Except that the privately owned NG wants to run diesels now... but except for that its authentic.

-Regards,

Dave

They all work for me.  Viva la difference.  But the Colorado ng. is certainly due the attention it gets.

JBWX 

dbesade Wrote:
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 Except that the privately owned NG wants to run
> diesels now... but except for that its authentic.

What is going on at the D&S right now is interesting.  They are dealing with a very real threat to their continued operations.  Both railroads have evolved a whole lot since their days as DRGW freight haulers, and what is going now at the D&S is part of that continuing evolution.  I spent a lot of time chasing both railroads in the early 60's  (my pix here:  Rio Grande Narrow Gauge in the 60's), and while a lot remains "authentic" on both railroads, so has a lot already changed and continues to change.  Neither railroad are particularly good imitations of the DRGW anymore, too much rock ballast, too much fresh paint.  If the coversion of the 493 to an oil burner is as successful as it should be, I would guess the big immediate "threat" to the D&S is that the fuel will become recycled motor oil not diesel. 

JBWX

Steam on the edge of the world is absolutely correct!  Here 476 is coming around the bend, February 18, 2018.

Ronnie
Amarillo TX



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/18 11:39 by steamfan49.

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D&SNG has had to fight the NIMBY group and the environment.  I'm sure they lost a ton of money this year because of the fire danger.  You either do what you need to do to survive or piss on the fire and call the dogs.   The fire thing I can understand.  If lands were managed like they should be, there would be less tinder around which would make life easier out west.  The NIMBYS........well what can you say about them?  The country is on a crazy streak with people moving somewhere else and wanting everything to change to what they want.  As Nancy Reagan said "Just say NO".

jbwest Wrote:
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> dbesade Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>  Except that the privately owned NG wants to run
> > diesels now... but except for that its
> authentic.
>
> What is going on at the D&S right now is
> interesting.  They are dealing with a very real
> threat to their continued operations.  Both
> railroads have evolved a whole lot since their
> days as DRGW freight haulers, and what is going
> now at the D&S is part of that continuing
> evolution.  I spent a lot of time chasing both
> railroads in the early 60's  (my pix here:  Rio
> Grande Narrow Gauge in the 60's), and while a lot
> remains "authentic" on both railroads, so has a
> lot already changed and continues to change.
>  Neither railroad are particularly good
> imitations of the DRGW anymore, too much rock
> ballast, too much fresh paint.  If the coversion
> of the 493 to an oil burner is as successful as it
> should be, I would guess the big immediate
> "threat" to the D&S is that the fuel will become
> recycled motor oil not diesel. 
>
> JBWX

Fair enough... I'll admit a new NG Diesel sounds intriguing. Will also be nice to see a K37 out that way.

-Regards

Dave

jbwest Wrote:

> I spent a lot of time chasing both
> railroads in the early 60's  (my pix here:  Rio
> Grande Narrow Gauge in the 60's)...

A fabulous collection. Thanks for the link -- and all the hard work!!!

Thanks for being adventurous and following the link, and the kind words.

JBWX

dbesade Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1976 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why Keystone1 would call it the "damned" narrow
> > guage and complain about it is beyond me. It's
> > magical and both places keep the past alive
> more
> > authentically than any mainline excursions
> could
> > ever hope to.
>
> Except that the privately owned NG wants to run
> diesels now... but except for that its authentic.
>
> -Regards,
>
> Dave

During drought periods, yes. They are not getting rid of steam. Not a full time move, just a method of operating under fire restrictions when trains would otherwise sit.

1976 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dbesade Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 1976 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Why Keystone1 would call it the "damned"
> narrow
> > > guage and complain about it is beyond me.
> It's
> > > magical and both places keep the past alive
> > more
> > > authentically than any mainline excursions
> > could
> > > ever hope to.
> >
> > Except that the privately owned NG wants to run
> > diesels now... but except for that its
> authentic.
> >
> > -Regards,
> >
> > Dave
>
> During drought periods, yes. They are not getting
> rid of steam. Not a full time move, just a method
> of operating under fire restrictions when trains
> would otherwise sit.

I find it interesting that the distance between Durango and Chama is only 100 miles... yet one Operator (Goverment Owned) isn't having the same issues and restrictions as the other Operator (Privately Owned). As I noted above, it will be interesting to see new build NG Diesels and an Oil Fired K37. I'm just buying a drought as an excuse.. its not the first drought, nor the last. The other NG operator is in the same area and has no issues running its trains... perhaps this has to do with the fact that the DSNG actually funds several other railroads that operator owns, something confirmed when those other railroads shuttered operations with the DSNG couldn't run.

Just thoughts for discussion!

-Regards,

Dave

dbesade Wrote:
>
> I find it interesting that the distance between
> Durango and Chama is only 100 miles...

And 1200 feet in altitude.  Durango and the area immediately north is a lot hotter and dryer than Chama.  The Forest Service shut down the C&TS back around 2002 or so, when there were fires in that area.  And the winters over the past decade have been a lot dryer in both places than in years past.  The climate is changing, the only argument is whether the change is cyclical or permanent.  The D&S is (or was) a cash cow because the DRGW sold it cheaply to Bradshaw to get rid of it, and it generates a lot of revenue.  Harper probably had to take on some debt when he purchased it from Bradsaw, but it still seems to have the kind of cash flow that can finance expensive things like oil conversions and diesels.  If similar things happened to the C&TS it would be out of business absent more taxpayer money (they did get the Lobato trestle rebuilt that way).   And yes public ownership and a status as both tourist railroad and museum gives the C&TS a different business dynamic.

JBWX

Thanks again John.
In my opinion the trouble at Durango is the airport and the rich and near rich outsiders who have visions of a Swiss vacation second home and no appreciation of history

Posted from iPhone

Replies inline in Italics below

jbwest Wrote:
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> dbesade Wrote:
> >
> > I find it interesting that the distance between
> > Durango and Chama is only 100 miles...
>
> And 1200 feet in altitude.  Durango and the area
> immediately north is a lot hotter and dryer than
> Chama.  The Forest Service shut down the C&TS
> back around 2002 or so, when there were fires in
> that area.  And the winters over the past decade
> have been a lot dryer in both places than in years
> past.  The climate is changing, the only argument
> is whether the change is cyclical or permanent.
No debate on my end why DSNG suspended operations. However don't see the C&TS burning oil or running diesels as a result. I'll leave the "Global Warming" or "Climate Change" or whatever its being called this decade for a different discussion on a different forum.

>  The D&S is (or was) a cash cow because the DRGW
> sold it cheaply to Bradshaw to get rid of it, and
> it generates a lot of revenue.  Harper probably
> had to take on some debt when he purchased it from
> Bradsaw, but it still seems to have the kind of
> cash flow that can finance expensive things like
> oil conversions and diesels.

Thing is... I don't think its financing anything. If anything its subsidizing other operations that Harper owns which on the surface (I have no facts beyond what we are discussing) that his other operations are not as healthy. Meaning that if for some reason the DSNG suspended operations we could lose a few Railroads as a result. It also means there is likely limited liquidity in the business (otherwise the other operations would have continued). Finally, based on the previous assumption regarding liquidity (which itself is based off the fact that they suspended other operations, likely due to cost) that they are taking on even more debt to buy locomotives and covert the K37 to an oil burner. I hope it works out... but thats a lot of cost on top of subsidizing other operations... one misstep and we could lose them all.

>  If similar things
> happened to the C&TS it would be out of business
> absent more taxpayer money (they did get the
> Lobato trestle rebuilt that way).   And yes
> public ownership and a status as both tourist
> railroad and museum gives the C&TS a different
> business dynamic.

I doubt they would be out of business. As you noted in 2002 they suspended operations and they are still here.

>
> JBWX

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railstiesballast Wrote:
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> Thanks again John.
> In my opinion the trouble at Durango is the
> airport and the rich and near rich outsiders who
> have visions of a Swiss vacation second home and
> no appreciation of history
>
> Posted from iPhone

Colorado is the new California.

Regards,

Dave

railstiesballast Wrote:
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> In my opinion the trouble at Durango is the
> airport and the rich and near rich outsiders who
> have visions of a Swiss vacation second home and
> no appreciation of history
>
Hi Mike. Durango is an interesting example of big time change.  When I first visited in 1960 it was a small town that basically was the commercial hub of an agricultural and mining area, with a minor in tourism.  Today the place is almost unrecognizable.  You get the impression that every Texan who has retired has moved to Durango, or has purchased a second home there in anticipation of retiring. That's certainly what I would have done had I had stayed in Houston! The good news I suppose is it is a thriving community.  The bad news is the newcomers have different views and needs, and they have a right to vote.  The fact the railroad was there first is pretty irrelevent.  At the risk of saying the obvioius,  what makes the railroad relevent are the jobs it supports.  I'm guessing most people appreciate that, and perhaps a few even appreciate the history and the spectacle of steam at work, but with change comes risk and uncertainty.  And Durango has seen change big time.

One more picture.  This was taken in what is now the middle of a Walmart parking lot!

JBWX

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No doubt someone will bitch about all that black smoke. That's what makes the photo. If you move there, you know there is a steam railroad there. If you don't like it, move someplace else. 

Your first photo is spectacular, John.  I remain a fan of your photography.

100% agreement!