Steam & Excursion > Excessive steam discharge on 4014?

Hi All,
I've been "off the grid"  TO-wise  so this question may have already been answered: On some of the You Tube videos os 4014 running across Nebraska I noticed what seemed to me to be excessive steam or steam/water discharge from the drain under the engineer's side of the cab. It seemed to be more than usual to me.  I'm totally ignorant of the current blowdown and injector piping of the engine so I can't even venture a guess. Any assistance or info much appreciated.  BTW in viewing the top of both 4014 and 844 both in person in Wyoming and on video I did not notice a Wilson blowoff separator installed on either engine. 

As always, no flames and no trolls, please, just a solid answer. 

Have fun, be safe,

Bruce "Doc" Jones  Sierra Madre CA

DocJones Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi All,
> I've been "off the grid"  TO-wise  so this
> question may have already been answered: On some
> of the You Tube videos os 4014 running across
> Nebraska I noticed what seemed to me to be
> excessive steam or steam/water discharge from the
> drain under the engineer's side of the cab. It
> seemed to be more than usual to me.  I'm totally
> ignorant of the current blowdown and injector
> piping of the engine so I can't even venture a
> guess. Any assistance or info much appreciated. 
> BTW in viewing the top of both 4014 and 844 both
> in person in Wyoming and on video I did not notice
> a Wilson blowoff separator installed on either
> engine. 
>
> As always, no flames and no trolls, please, just a
> solid answer. 
>
> Have fun, be safe,
>
> Bruce "Doc" Jones  Sierra Madre CA

That is the exit chute from the redesigned blowdown system. Originally, most big UP steam locomotives, i.e. 800s, 3900s, 4000s and 9000s, were all equipped with the Wilson Blowdown/Sludge remover system. The Wilson system, had fairly large diameter steam discharge "turbine" device on top, forward of the cab. When either the Engineer's or Fireman's remote controlled blowdown was opened, the boiler water would be piped into that circular "turbine" device, where the sludgy liquid would be flung outwards, and discharged out of that chute under the Engineer's side of the cab. The saturated steam would be exhausted vertically out the large diameter exhaust hole on the center of the "turbine" device.

To HotWater
Thanks very much. I was hoping you'd answer. It just seemed to me that (now that I know) the blowdown was open for quite a long time. Most boiler blowdowns  seem to be done in a fairly short period of time, so far as I've observed. Any thoughts on that?  Also, does that chute connect to only one blowdown cock or is there another one on the fireman's side? Seems to me that most locomotives have one on either side of the boiler - note the 4449.
Thanks again,

Have fun, be safe, 
Bruce "Doc" Jones  Sierra Madre CA

DocJones Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To HotWater
> Thanks very much. I was hoping you'd answer. It
> just seemed to me that (now that I know) the
> blowdown was open for quite a long time. Most
> boiler blowdowns  seem to be done in a fairly
> short period of time, so far as I've observed. Any
> thoughts on that?


You are correct, but with the redesigned & re-piped system on both 844 and now 4014, there is no telling how long either the Fireman or the Engineer keeps his respective blowdown open. Then there is all that piping that must slowly vent off the hot boiler water, and subsequently cool down.

  Also, does that chute connect
> to only one blowdown cock or is there another one
> on the fireman's side?

Yes, i.e. one on each side.

Seems to me that most
> locomotives have one on either side of the boiler
> - note the 4449.

Correct.

> Thanks again,
>
> Have fun, be safe, 
> Bruce "Doc" Jones  Sierra Madre CA

It's very noisy, I dont know how they stand to listen to it continuously make that loud hiss. Plus it fouls up almost every video or photo from Ed's side of the engine. Very distracting. I bet that gets changed or fixed after the tour.

Posted from Android

LocoPilot750 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's very noisy, I dont know how they stand to
> listen to it continuously make that loud hiss.
> Plus it fouls up almost every video or photo from
> Ed's side of the engine. Very distracting. I bet
> that gets changed or fixed after the tour.

I'll bet it doesn't get "changed or fixed", as THAT is exactly the way he wants it, i.e. just like 844. The main reason he changed the design of the original Wilson system; he didn't like all the white mineral deposits on top of the cab roof, which was so characteristic of UP steam locomotives in regular service. Thus, the steam exhaust "turbine" was eliminated from its location on top, just forward of the cab. 

I must say, even though I'm a bit partial to SP 4449, in my opinion the Southern Pacific designed the better "blowdown system", what with that large muffler on either side, just forward of the trailing truck (or just behind the engine truck on the cab forwards), which directs the blowdown mess downward into the edge of the ballast. The system is designed so that no matter which side mud-ring blowndown is opened, i.e. either the Engineer's or the Fireman's, the discharge of each blowdown valve is piped into an interconnecting pipe fitting, which then directs the blowdown boiler water to BOTH blowdown mufflers.

Why can they do it the usual way with 4014?

---

CPRR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why can they do it the usual way with 4014?

Well, that may be the "usual way" on older/smaller, lower boiler pressure locomotives, but by the 1930s and 1940s, bigger/newer locomotives had all sorts of remote controlled (either operated by compressed air or manual rods) blowdown valves, which were to be used MANY TIMES throughout the trip, especially in those areas of bad water. Thus, many railroads had some sort of method for muffling/dispersing such potentially dangerous "direct" blowdown. For just one example, such a practice as shown in your photo would have been EXTREMELY dangerous on the Southern Pacific departing either San Francisco or Los Angeles!

Yes, buit it does clear out the railfans standing too close for a picture!

Out

That hissing, steaming, continuous blow down might cause more photos to be taken of the Firemans side.

Posted from Android

callum_out Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, buit it does clear out the railfans standing
> too close for a picture!
>
> Out

Right. Opening the cylinder cocks woks very well also.

LocoPilot750 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That hissing, steaming, continuous blow down might
> cause more photos to be taken of the Firemans
> side.

Not if the sun is on the Engineer's side. Besides, the general public are basically clueless about such things, and any visible steam tends to get them all excited.

Blow all the steam you want it still doesn't indicate the degree of sludge removal. The sludge tends to
float for a while before settling low, there's an art to where the turbine or plate or other separator picks
up the water mix.

Out

I almost looks like it blows whenever the throttle is open. 
When we in Texas with 1522, we had steam drains blowing all the time.  Awful water,you couldn't carry more than just a little in the bottom of the glass or it would foam like hell.  We fought that the whole time we were down there.
Get the water up to a half glass and it would strangle the whistle.

Jack, I seem to remember the Wilson system was continuous.  This one looks to be continuous, too.  Is it?

nycman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jack, I seem to remember the Wilson system was
> continuous. 

No. The standard "Wilson sludge Remover" system was NOT continuous. Both the Engineer and Fireman had their own individual handles which operated an air control valve which then opened the big blowdown valve. I seem to remember that the 800 class northerns had a continuous blowdown from an area under the middle of the firebox mud-ring. I seem to recall 844 having that.

This one looks to be continuous,
> too.  Is it?

Heaven only knows what has been done to the blowdown system currently on 4014.

I would agree with the SP system. The stuff comes out with no restrictions. I'm guessing the Wilson separator gave the engineer or fireman a better look at what was coming ot of the blowdown as it sepearated the sludge from the steam. I seem to recall one of you folks calling it "malted milk". Other than that I really see no clear purpose in the Wilson separator. Also, wouldn't it be better to do the blowdown when the engine was not working and thus water circulating? Seems that would give the sludge time to settle and thus be flushed out. 
I have read about continuous blowdown systems. I seem to recall that the Signal Foam Meter was possbily one of them or an automatic blowdown hooked to contacts in the steam space of the boiler to detect foaming. Am I correct? It would seem best to have the simplest most effective system to preserve the health of the boiler.   
As always, thanks for good info - no flames and no trolls please.

Have fun, be safe,

Bruce "Doc" Jones  Sierra Madre CA
 

As I mentioned the best way would be to expell it before it settled, a blow down is only as effective as the
construction of the mud ring and the ability of the velocity to clear the settled materials. You don't want that
crap to become a solid.

Out

Why can't this steam exhaust be directed inside the gage of track under the tender?  Maybe more air turbulence there to disperse the steam.

PlyWoody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why can't this steam exhaust be directed inside
> the gage of track under the tender?  Maybe more
> air turbulence there to disperse the steam.

Most railroads NEVER did that, with their largest, most modern steam locomotives. Why destroy the ballast, ties and crossings/bridges structures with all that sludge & filth, not to mention the extreme heat?