Steam & Excursion > A Jack Or Wes question

In the older days of steam, let’s’ say the 1930-40’s, 4-8-4 or 2-10-4 pulling 40-50 freight cats, how often might you stop for water and how often did you lube the locomotive? I know depending on track profile, but an average?

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Is a freight cat different from an alley cat?

Typically, locos were designed to go
Terminal to terminal, with a full tender at the start...

A RR “day” used to be 100 miles..
So, terminals were spaced to suit..

As locos developed greater power and longer distances...they’d typically get water near 100 miles...
Coal capacity was typically about twice as far...

Pennsy & NYC RR were big proponents of track water-pans between the rails... about 3,000 feet
long... heated for winter... I’m not sure of the spacing, in miles..

N&W ( after WW2) adopted aux.
water cars ( “canteens”) to stretch
water-miles.. added about 20,000
gallons of water..

Apparently, UP had a coaling facility about halfway up the Continental Divide... with water, too..

But, typically the old “100-miles rule” dictated watering facilities..

W.

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So many variables here.  I can only speak for the Frisco.  They seemed to have a tank or water crane about every 30 miles.  Not that the engines needed it but so one would be in reach if they did.  Between St. Louis and Newburg, then known as the Rolla Sub was a division.  119  miles.  There was a coal chute at Stanton about halfway.
The lube servicing was done at Newburg while crews changed.
There was also a coal chute at Lebanon, MO about halfway between Newburg and Springfield.

Thank you gentlemen. Helps in a scale layout I am planning. And it is "cars" not "cats".... damn big fingers on a small keyboard.

It would be interesting to see cats in a row, behind a scale locomotive though. Wait, herding cats, naw.

25-30 miles between water facilities is sort of normal if not in heavily graded territory.  It can get down to 15 miles if the grades are severe.  Again, not every locomotive will need every stop.  Coal or oil seems to average much more than that,  like 100 miles, depending on grades.   Illinois Central was another railroad that hooked a canteen behind almost every main like freight engine to save on water stops between division points.

I'm not Wes nor Jack,and do not have their high speed mainline experience, but can relate to "shortline" experience on the North Shore Scenic Railroad with DM&IR 332, a large 2-8-0, this summer.

332 has an 8,000 gallon tender, and ideally  if all conditions are perfect could probably leave Duluth, run 28 miles to Two Harbors, and return on one full tank.  However, on a railroad a day doesn't go by that's perfect!

"The Plan" calls for topping off the tender before leaving Duluth, refilling at Two Harbors, and returning to Duluth with enough in the tank to safely bank the engine for the night, then ready to engine the next morning, refill, and make the next days run.   Most of the time that works.

But --- **** Happens.  Perhaps, a meet.  Delays getting thru the CTC.  Having to wait for an ore train - sometimes up to two hours.   You Have To Plan that these things can go wrong, so thats the reason for topping off at Two Harbors, and most of the time we have to add almost 5,000 gallons at Two Harbors, sometimes less, sometimes more.

Then, there's the People Element.  Who's the Engineer?  Who's the Fireman? 

Where does the engineer like to run the Johnson Bar?  Where does he set the throttle?  Does he use them bot together in an economical fashion?  How fast does he like to run?  How much steam does he use drifting or going downhill (he HAS to use some)?

Does the fireman keep his pressure up?  Does he keep it even?  Does he waste water at the injectors?  Does he waste water at the pop valves?

The engine is running most efficiently when at "Track Speed" with an even boiler pressure within 3 or 4 pounds of the pops setting.  [Two of 4014's firemen separately told me that Ed insists on keeping pressure within 2 pounds, without blowing the pops!  But, that's an oil burner.]

With someone else running the engine, I had one student fireman this summer get into a really bad situation (coal burning) this summer, letting pressure drop to 120 (Pops set for 190).  I told him "This engine uses between 3 and 4 times as much water when running at120 psi than at 185.  And, if it drops more that another 5 pounds the air pumps will not be able to maintain brake pipe pressure and the train WILL STOP."

He turned to me, put down his shovel, and asked "Allright, what can I do?"   He should have asked much earlier.  Pride.

I asked "What color's your stack?"

"Clear."

I told him to toss in three scoops of coal across the front, then check his stack color.   The pressure rose momentarily to 122.

"Clear, but for one small puff of grey", he said.

"OK, that's where your hole is.  Now throw two scoops of coal in the right front corner of the firebox."

He did, and the pressure again went to 122 and held there.  He told me "The stack is was now a light grey, but turning clear."

"Throw three more scoops in the right front corner."

He did and the pressure continued to rise.

"Now, go back to your regular firing pattern, but throw a bit extra in that right front corner every now and thrn."  A right handed fireman is most likely have trouble in the right front corner.

We got to Two Harbors without further trouble.  He learned something.  And, we added 7,000+ gallons to the tender!

-Larry Doyle



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/19 12:26 by LarryDoyle.

On the western division of the Texas & Pacific it  had water tanks every 25 or so miles. Engines  were lubricated at every  subdivision point of a crew change.    Oil was kept about every 132-135 miles which was the crew change mileage..

On 2-10-4's westbound out of Ft Worth they would normally take water between 80 and 100 miles depending on tonnage .  Smaller engines  with smaller tenders that for example worked the local trains, depending on time and work they did could take water 3 to 4 times.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/19 15:33 by tomstp.

And throw in another variable, say with a local. A conductor friend told me, for example, his local would barely make it to the terminal in 16 hours (particulary during WWII) with all the customers they had to switch and the meets with superior trains. That meant more fuel and water were used. As a habit, some mainline engineers often topped off the tender and took on coal at a mainline coaling station. Others were proud of the fact that they did not do so.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com

 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/19 19:52 by wabash2800.

Union Pacific had water tanks scatttered through out the system to cover the needs of teh railroad.
Water and fuel usage depended on the type of locomotive, type of service, tonnage of the train, delays along the way and the terrain they operate over.
At initial terminals the locomotives were serviced at the maintenance facilities. Then the crew takes the loco out to the train and makes an airtest befroe departing. 
That time is variable and all the time using fuel and water.
For example Cheyenne west in 1946 they had water stations at;
Cheyenne 350,000 g; Corlett 50,000 g; Otto 200,000 g; Granite 130,000 g; Buford 125,000 g; Dale Creek 45,000 g; Colores 200,000 g; and Red Buttes 50,000 g just to get over Sherman Hill to Laramie (56 miles). 

Bob Krieger
Cheyenne, WY