Steam & Excursion > Question for Wes on 4014

The seperator that appears to always be operating:  I thought that to clear out mud and other things the seperator had to blow with a vigerous discharge.  The one under the cab on the engineer side is constantly blowing at what appears to be very slow amount.  How can it clear out sludge and mud with only that amount of discharge?

tomstp Wrote:
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> The seperator that appears to always be operating:
>  I thought that to clear out mud and other things
> the seperator had to blow with a vigerous
> discharge.  The one under the cab on the engineer
> side is constantly blowing at what appears to be
> very slow amount.  How can it clear out sludge
> and mud with only that amount of discharge?

That is the current manager's own idea, sort of copied from what he did on 844 back in 2012. All the UP modern, large, steam locomotives were equipped with the Wilson remote operated, Blowdown (sludge-remover) system. With the Wilson system, the Engineer's and Fireman's remote operated (from inside the cab at each respective location), the blowdown cock on either side of the firebox mudring, has it's boilerwater piped topside to a large, round turbine type separator. As the high velocity hot boilerwater, under boiler pressure, enters the turbine device, the vast majority of the sludgy liquid spins to the outer portion of the turbine, while the steam is exhausted skyward out of the center of the turbine. The dirty, sludgy hot boiler water is piped downward to an exit chute, mounted directly under the Engineer's cab window, at almost ground level, i.e. spilling all that dirty/sludgy water out on the ballast line.

The current manager didn't like the white mineral deposit accumulation on the cab roof (characteristic of pretty much all UP steam locomotives equipped with the Wilson sludge remover system), so that proven system was removed/modified on both 844 and now 4014. We all know how the lack of proper blowndowns and boiler washes drastically effected 844, along with the boiler water treatment chemicals, but the book is still out on 4014. 

I was wondering about that too, but more from the wasting of precious steam aspect.

Perhaps the 4014 has plenty of excess steam to waste with such a relatively light load and diesel helper?

This is an effective sweeper to move back viewers that are too close.

CP8888 Wrote:
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> This is an effective sweeper to move back viewers
> that are too close.

Not really. The open cylinder cocks are much more effective.

A terrific observation.
Let me say first that I have no personal knowledge about the facts that HotWater makes.
I totally support and agree with his comments about what appears to be going on with the 4014..

So, let’s discuss the general ideas towards maintaining proper control over the proportions of impurities in boiler water, as
was approached, back in the day.

First, start with the BEST water you can find, with the least amounts of dissolved salts.  
LarryDoyle extols the virtues of Lake Superior’s waters.  If it’s as pure as he extols, that’s wonderful.
Probably it’s THE BEST WATER to use in a boiler.

That being said, like they used to say about the army: ‘You go to war with army you have, not the one you wish you had!”
So, railroads and manufacturers have tried various schemes over the years....none of which was perfect, all of which added their problems to the mix...

Boilers, are by design, concentrators of contaminants in the water fed to the boiler water.  Meaning that, steam,
the invisible gaseous state of water consists only of H2O.....all,the rest of the dissolved stuff stays in the boiler water.....
and gets more concentrated with every mile you travel.   The challenge is how do you control the concentrations of salts in the boiler water...the more steam you make, the salty-er the water in the boiler gets....
Mud also accumulates, along with the concentrations of the minerals....adding ‘chemicals’ only adds more ‘impurities’ to the concentrations of ‘stuff’ in the boiler water.  Adding chemicals, generally aggravates the problems of boiler water concentrations.

In non- locomotive boilers, water softening ’plants’ treat the water BEFORE it is used as feed water for boilers.
There are many schemes for external treatment....the boiler feedwater is ‘softened’ and stored.
Also, commercial power plants and steamships capture the exhausted steam, condense it, and reuse the same water.
The water treatment plant supplies only ‘make-up’ water to the condensed water that is recirculated.  
Make-up water quantities are comparably tiny amounts, in terms of quantities, relative to the total amount of
boiler water in the steam power plant system.

In locomotives, it’s once and done, up the stack!

The boiler water gets muddier and muddier, depending on the chemical make-up of the water that you put in the tender.
You can control the concentrations in the boiler, by continuously blowing-down the boilers as you go...and adding makeup water
in order the attempt to dilute the concentrations in the boiler.   

NYC Niagaras were built with continuous blow-downs ( valve was mounted at the back, under the stoker ’elevator tube’), and using the Wilson componenents, as described by HotWater.

The Niagara’s mudring blow-down valve used a comparatively small orifice and piping—— the blowdown valve was connected to the dry-steam pipes leading to the cylinders (powering the 79” drivers)....the blowdown was operating while the throttle was open, by a significant amount, and it ceased when the throttle was closed.

NYC RR, in general, used fairly clean water, and  it was typically supplied by the track pans, that used water treatment plants , like in plants, described earlier, to keep the water 💧 in the best condition.  
They also, searched for underground, clean-water sites ....to supply their track pans.
.
MORE, in part 2, to follow..

W.

To be proofed, yet..



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/19 17:04 by wcamp1472.

The thing that I ponder on the Big Boy setup is that there is no evidence of removed solids on the exhaust of his system, it appears
to be just blowing off steam. And Jack's comment a bit back of the report that they used 32,000 gallons to get to Barstow was mind
blowing.

Out

Short of going too deep into the woods here.... Maybe, just maybe, it is possible the Ed is taking a page from L. D. Porta, who was an advocate of the “continuous” blow down, which as per Mr. Porta was to be done by taking water out of the boiler near or at the general water line where it is common to get material build up. The idea is to keep the chemicals and even PPM or PH level and even at all times, rather than trying to fight these things. I’ve never chatted with Ed about it, other than when I worked with him I think I recall him being a Porta fan. I could be wrong... It looks to me to be a “continuous” blow down system of sorts.

I commented in another thread that if 4014 was really having steaming issues, the first thing to go would be the “continuous “ blow down as it spending water/steam when you can’t afford to spend it. Partly why I called crap on the steaming issues.

HotWatet taught me to fire the 3985 to which I’ll be forever grateful for him and his wisdom. As I recall, we used in the upwards of 40,000 gallons a day on some of those days. 32,000 gallons on a day with the Big Boy, very possible. In my book, maybe low.....

From my IPhone, no edits

JohnE.

Posted from iPhone

John the question asked of Wes and now maybe you is does the slow release get rid of mud and sludge.  I always under stood a full pressure blow was needed for that.

Wasatch-RR-Cont Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Short of going too deep into the woods here....
> Maybe, just maybe, it is possible the Ed is taking
> a page from L. D. Porta, who was an advocate of
> the “continuous” blow down, which as per Mr.
> Porta was to be done by taking water out of the
> boiler near or at the general water line where it
> is common to get material build up. The idea is
> to keep the chemicals and even PPM or PH level and
> even at all times, rather than trying to fight
> these things. I’ve never chatted with Ed about
> it, other than when I worked with him I think I
> recall him being a Porta fan. I could be wrong...
> It looks to me to be a “continuous” blow down
> system of sorts.
>
> I commented in another thread that if 4014 was
> really having steaming issues, the first thing to
> go would be the “continuous “ blow down as it
> spending water/steam when you can’t afford to
> spend it. Partly why I called crap on the
> steaming issues.
>
> HotWatet taught me to fire the 3985 to which
> I’ll be forever grateful for him and his wisdom.
> As I recall, we used in the upwards of 40,000
> gallons a day on some of those days. 32,000
> gallons on a day with the Big Boy, very possible.
> In my book, maybe low.....
>
> From my IPhone, no edits
>
> JohnE.
>
> Posted from iPhone

John I agree with some of what you say. First hand account on going up cajon pass eastbound. The steam pressure got down to 180psi with power reverser only a 1/4 of the way forward off center with throttle only open about a 1/4 of the way (A little more than drifting). The throttle settings changed very little on the way up the hill but the fireman was fighting it the whole way. More fire, then add water over and over again. I heard the whistle on Saturday afternoon on the flats west of Barstow and the whistle sounded like there was a lot of water mixed in with the steam (sounded very muffled). On Sunday morning leaving Yermo at the beginning of the day the whistle sounded strong and like it should sound. The diesel helpers pushed in run 7-8 up Cajon eastbound and the same for Sunday Westbound out of Victorville.Run 2-3 across the flats both days. The 4014 could not or would not pull the train out of the yard in Yermo Sunday morning without the helpers pushing in run 1-2. The yard is pretty much flat. 32000 gallons of water used on both Saturday and Sunday.  Maybe this info helps. Something isn't right.

CS

Well, we could have a very long talk about this as there are so many things in play. Here are just a few.

When talking about a “blow down” we generally believe in the boiler world that what we are after is “velocity” as part of the process. That means, we want to use the speed of the exiting water to drag with it more water that may also be contaminated in some way. In general, we would all believe that by opening the blow down valve we would be sucking all of the sludge from the mud ring and releasing it from the boiler. Though the concept is sound, the actual results vary. The problem is; at any given time the sludge in the bottom of the boiler can be the consistency of yogurt, or nearly cement.... you never know. Yogurt is easier to expel, cement is much hard to rid from the boiler.

For this cause you will see on most boilers, blow downs at all four corners and, in the case of 4014 some in the middle of the firebox too. Though important and effective, the effect is more isolated than it is all encompassing.

I am a fan of Mr. Porta. I do believe that managing water and PH levels and PPM levels is more critical than managing the actual sludge in the boiler. By managing the PH levels, you almost manage the sludge levels.

The issue that UP Steam faces (for the life of the program and ever more) is that at every stop, the water is so different. High acids, high mineral, even salt and chlorine all cause issues. The UP Steam guys are in more of a battle to keep it consistent for the boiler to reduce shock than they are trying to fix the water they get.

Did this help with the question above?

JohnE.

Posted from iPhone

No.... the slow release does not get rid of mud. The slow release is more of a chemistry issue than a mud issue. I assume by mud, you mean the mud in the mud ring.

Did that help?

JohnE.

Posted from iPhone

That is what I wanted to know.  So,to get rid of solids it needs vigerous blow downs.

CS,

I wasn’t there.... I’m only going off what I’m seeing in videos. I’m not seeing some of those struggles but I’m also not there. I can tell you from first hand experience that, even with diesels in tow, sometimes it is just better to use them than to not use them. I’d remind everyone again, when 3985 did these trips in what.... 1993/1994, it had three E9’s with it and as I recall, they were basically run 8 all the way with 3985 at about 80-90% throttle... almost identical train.... actually, the 3985 train may have been a snitch bigger. More coaches, maybe.

None the less, I’m not arguing with any of you on the ground.... I’m just not seeing it from the videos and of what I know of Ed, some of what we are hearing is not par for the course.

Remember me.... the one who can easily admit if I’m wrong.... I could be.... I’m just not convinced of it myself. I think it is doing better than we think... or hear (with our own ears or via hearsay from others).

Just sayin.....

JohnE.

Posted from iPhone

Before Ed, I remember that the UP steam team had a water expert that went around the railroad testing water at every water stop about a month before the trip.  Then the crew would make up a list of what chemicals to add at each stop and their amounts, depending on how much water that they took on.     I vaguely remember that they did this in advance of each trip, certainly if it had been more than a year or two since they took water at that particular location.

Does anyone know if they still do that, or are they relying on water chemistry reports from years past?

Even city water changes from time to time, although it should still be within a prescribed range of chemistry, which of course varies from city to city.

I don't claim to be an expert on steam locomotive operation, but I have always been led to believe by folks in the know that a full blow down was required to fully and properly remove the sludge, mud, and other contaminants that accumulate in steam locomotive boilers. 

We had a water chemist in the group who would check water at the stops, and also check hot water from the boiler.  We did blowdowns in the morning and somewhat lesser ones under way about every thirty miles.
We never experienced any water problems except for twice.  Once on a N&W trip to Moberly, MO we had a horrible foaming situation after taking water at Mexico, MO.  We were also using an aux water car that for some reason didn't get all the way cleaned out and had some crap in it.  The trip back from Moberly was an absolute nightmare.  One old guy told us the water there was so bad they didn't even make coffee from it.
Then there was Texas water.  Some places, no matter what we did it wasn't right.
I've heard the UP train has a water softener in the car behind the water cars?

Frisco1522 Wrote:
⁹
> I've heard the UP train has a water softener in
> the car behind the water cars?


Yes it does.

-John

WesTrent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't claim to be an expert on steam locomotive
> operation, but I have always been led to believe
> by folks in the know that a full blow down was
> required to fully and properly remove the sludge,
> mud, and other contaminants that accumulate in
> steam locomotive boilers. 

Absolutely CORRECT!. In fact, the worse the water, the more often both the Engineer and Fireman need be blowing down their respective blowdowns.  In fact, both the UP and SP were having to conduct full boiler washes EVERY 15 DAYS, in those areas with really bad water, such as the UP across Nebraska, and the SP & AT&SF across the Southwestern U.S..

HotWater Wrote:

> The current manager didn't like the white mineral
> deposit accumulation on the cab roof
> (characteristic of pretty much all UP steam
> locomotives equipped with the Wilson sludge
> remover system), so that proven system was
> removed/modified on both 844 and now 4014. We all
> know how the lack of proper blowndowns and boiler
> washes drastically effected 844, along with the
> boiler water treatment chemicals, but the book is
> still out on 4014. 


Hey Jack it took like ony 1 year-1.5 years for 844 to go BO and go through that worthless rebuild, won't surprise me with 4014 and when that happens al Hell will break loose again and the Ed Supporters will be losing the battle like they did with 844!