Steam & Excursion > C&TSRR = Ooooooops = Don't Do This

Engineer / Fireman School 09-05-20.
Quoting The Student "Here's What Not To Do"
Posted at the students request.

Roger Hogan
Chama, NM
Train Stuff

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Good one Roger. I'm sure glad there was an extra shovel.... I wonder if it would have been a big problem if the remnants (steel parts) of the shovel were left in the firebox until fire was dumped. (Would the parts get hot enough to weld to the grate?)  Over all the years that steam has been fired, I bet this is not a first.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/20 17:32 by wabash2800.

wabash2800 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good one Roger. I'm sure glad there was an extra
> shovel.... I wonder if it would have been a big
> problem if the remnants (steel parts) of the
> shovel were left in the firebox until fire was
> dumped. (Would the parts got hot enough to weld to
> the grate?)  Over all the years that steam has
> been fired, I bet this is not a first.
>
> Victor A. Baird
> http://www.erstwhilepublications.com

I have heard stories about a shovel ending up in the firbox. First film of it for me.

Roger Hogan
Chama, NM
Train Stuff

Victor,

The thin steel of the shovel's scoop ( which seems to have remained in the fire) would not 
last long. The fire's temperature burns the carbon component out of the steel, it's too hot to 
'weld' to the cold cast iron of the grates.

The cast iron grates are kept cold by the draft that  feeds the fire.   When hot fire gets below
the grates, that's dangerous to the cast iron of the grate segments.....  the heat above and
below the grates is always to be AVOIDED at all costs.

The steel of the scoop will be burned in the fire, and any trace will be impossible to find when the
ash pan is cleaned out.  Bare Steel doesn't last long in the 3,000 degree fire ---it becomes fuel.
It's true in the blscksmith's forge and in the firebox.

Wes Camp



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/20 16:34 by wcamp1472.

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Victor,
>
> The thin steel of the shovel's scoop ( which seems
> to have remained in the fire) would not 
> last long. The fire's temperature burns the carbon
> component out of the steel, it's too hot to 
> 'weld' to the cold cast iron of the grates.
>
> The cast iron grates are kept cold by the draft
> that  feeds the fire.   When hot fire gets
> below
> the grates, that's dangerous to the cast iron of
> the grate segments.....  the heat above and
> below the grates is always to be AVOIDED at all
> costs.
>
> The steel of the scoop will be burned in the fire,
> and any trace will be impossible to find when the
> ash pan is cleaned out.  Bare Steel doesn't last
> long in the 3,000 degree fire ---it becomes fuel.
> It's true in the blscksmith's forge and in the
> firebox.
>
> Wes Camp

Thank you for the information.

Roger Hogan
Chama, NM
Train Stuff

Thanks Wes. I wondered about that. I suppose it would be a bit of a disaster if you didn't have a extra scoop on hand? <G> Without a stoker it would be hard to get enough coal in there and in the right places. I'll assume an extra scoop is standard?

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/20 11:22 by wabash2800.

wabash2800 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks West. I wondered about that. I suppose it
> would be a bit of a disaster if you didn't have a
> extra scoop on hand? Without a stoker it would be
> hard to get enough coal in there and in the right
> places. I'll assume an extra scoop is standard?
>
> Victor A. Baird
> http://www.erstwhilepublications.com

My guess is yes.

Roger Hogan
Chama, NM
Train Stuff

Roger, Great video showing a rare view into the crew of the engine, Excellent flim.


Chris

Mudrock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Roger, Great video showing a rare view into the
> crew of the engine, Excellent flim.
>
>
> Chris

Thanks Chris.

Roger Hogan
Chama, NM
Train Stuff

wabash2800 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks West. I wondered about that. I suppose it
> would be a bit of a disaster if you didn't have a
> extra scoop on hand? Without a stoker it would be
> hard to get enough coal in there and in the right
> places. I'll assume an extra scoop is standard?
>

You ALWAYS carry an extra shovel or two. Too important not to. Besides the possibility of an oops such as seen in Roger's video, you could loose one over the side of the gangway, or one could get damaged - broken handle or loose/broken rivets holding it together.

Also, when taking coal and dressing the coal pile, or cleaning up spillage of coal on the water deck of the tank, you won't get any help from other crewmen 《or crew-women) if there's only one shovel. Plan ahead!

Not all shovels are identical. If there are more than one you'll quickly figure out which give YOU better "feel" - the shape of the grip, the angle of the scoop where attached to the handle, the length of the shaft, can give YOU a half-pound or pound more or less capacity (which you may or may not be comfortable with). If you're tall and/or the fire door is low on the backhead, you'll likely want a shovel with a longer shaft.

LarryDoyle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> wabash2800 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Thanks West. I wondered about that. I suppose
> it
> > would be a bit of a disaster if you didn't have
> a
> > extra scoop on hand? Without a stoker it would
> be
> > hard to get enough coal in there and in the
> right
> > places. I'll assume an extra scoop is standard?
> >
>
> You ALWAYS carry an extra shovel or two. Too
> important not to. Besides the possibility of an
> oops such as seen in Roger's video, you could
> loose one over the side of the gangway, or one
> could get damaged - broken handle or loose/broken
> rivets holding it together.
>
> Also, when taking coal and dressing the coal pile,
> or cleaning up spillage of coal on the water deck
> of the tank, you won't get any help from other
> crewmen 《or crew-women) if there's only one
> shovel. Plan ahead!
>
> Not all shovels are identical. If there are more
> than one you'll quickly figure out which give YOU
> better "feel" - the shape of the grip, the angle
> of the scoop where attached to the handle, the
> length of the shaft, can give YOU a half-pound or
> pound more or less capacity (which you may or may
> not be comfortable with). If you're tall and/or
> the fire door is low on the backhead, you'll
> likely want a shovel with a longer shaft.

That is interesting information = Thanks.

Roger Hogan
Chama, NM
Train Stuff

amoooung the fireman's duties when first arrving at the locomotive at beginning of shift is to make sure it has all the necessary supplies, which include full oil cans of engine and vavle oil, tender full of (hopefully) water, sufficient fuel make it across the road, sand in the dome, and a pair of scoop shovels.

Over the years I've had a few fireman lose a scoop in the fire.  One quick-acting guy managed to get the fire rake out in a big hurry and extract the scoop with a minor scorching.  Once I was running a helper out of Chama and a few miles out fo town, the road engine blew a long "STOPPPPPP" whistle.  I put about 10 lbs of air under the train, and things came to a stop.  Looking back, I could see the engineer looking at the ground, shaking his head.  Just then the fireman poked his head into the fireman's gangway meekly asking "uh, would you guys have an extra scoop that I could borrow?"  We gave him our spare, but I told him that there was probably a spare in the doghouse of his engine.  At the top of the hill, while getting water, he looked and sure enough, there was a spare in the doghouse.

Earlk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>  At the top of the hill, while getting
> water, he looked and sure enough, there was a
> spare in the doghouse.

Sounds like a brakeman had made himself useful helping dress the coal pile, then merely tossed the shovel in the doghouse when done, rather than hanging it on one of the hooks in front of the tenders coal boards.

-LD

Earlk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> amoooung the fireman's duties when first arrving
> at the locomotive at beginning of shift is to make
> sure it has all the necessary supplies, which
> include full oil cans of engine and vavle oil,
> tender full of (hopefully) water, sufficient fuel
> make it across the road, sand in the dome, and a
> pair of scoop shovels.
>
> Over the years I've had a few fireman lose a scoop
> in the fire.  One quick-acting guy managed to get
> the fire rake out in a big hurry and extract the
> scoop with a minor scorching.  Once I was running
> a helper out of Chama and a few miles out fo town,
> the road engine blew a long "STOPPPPPP" whistle. 
> I put about 10 lbs of air under the train, and
> things came to a stop.  Looking back, I could see
> the engineer looking at the ground, shaking his
> head.  Just then the fireman poked his head into
> the fireman's gangway meekly asking "uh, would you
> guys have an extra scoop that I could borrow?" 
> We gave him our spare, but I told him that there
> was probably a spare in the doghouse of his
> engine.  At the top of the hill, while getting
> water, he looked and sure enough, there was a
> spare in the doghouse.

Hi Earl, Thanks for your fun story.

Roger Hogan
Chama, NM
Train Stuff

LarryDoyle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Earlk Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >  At the top of the hill, while getting
> > water, he looked and sure enough, there was a
> > spare in the doghouse.
>
> Sounds like a brakeman had made himself useful
> helping dress the coal pile, then merely tossed
> the shovel in the doghouse when done, rather than
> hanging it on one of the hooks in front of the
> tenders coal boards.
>
> -LD

I have heard that some crews keep a spare in the doghouse.

Roger Hogan
Chama, NM
Train Stuff