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Steam & Excursion > So What's the Deal With "T&P 909"?


Date: 03/01/21 10:16
So What's the Deal With "T&P 909"?
Author: BoilingMan

I took this in Dallas in March 1976 when the AFT visited, behind T&P 610 no less.  At first I thought it was kind of a nice T&P reunion of sorts, but then I learned the "909" was bogus and buried the slide- rarely bothering with  it.
I don't recall all the facts in any real detail, just that the "909" was meant to replace a real T&P loco that was cut up for some reason.  The really odd twist was that the "909" unwittingly became the only big NYC steam saved?
But I'm sure someone in the TO community knows the whole story (and probably correct my version along the way!)
SR




Date: 03/01/21 10:35
Re: So What's the Deal With "T&P 909"?
Author: HotWater

That locomotive was/is actually a New York Central L3a class 4-8-2 Mohawk number 3001, that went to Dallas because the particular T&P locomotive went to scrap. If you Google "New York Central 3001", which is currently saved at a small NYC Museum in Elkart, Indiana, you will get lots of information.



Date: 03/01/21 10:53
Re: So What's the Deal With "T&P 909"?
Author: wcamp1472

A sad tale..

Was ALCO-built and operated as NYC L4 "Mohawk", 4-8-2.  #3001.
Acquired by T&P as replacement for a badly deteriorated T&P displayed engine.
Extensively modified to look like a T&P loco... butchered the loco & tender.
Was displayed, uncovered from the elements and NOT asbestos remediated.

The continuously wet asbestos, over decades, corroded virtually all the flexible
Staybolt caps and sockets until they were entirely rotted away.  

Years later, it was  "liberated" back to NYC  RR Museum, Elkhart, In. and cosmetically
restored to its appearance as a true NYC loco.

Google the "NYC 3001", to see its saga and for up-to-date status..

At one point, early 1990s, Ross despatched Russ Shipman and me to Elkhart for an in-depth 
study of what it would take to get it operational...
 Answer: An immense amount  of boiler/ firebox work..

Although the superheater units were inside a 'dry boiler' they had been
extensively corroded-away with just rusted stubs hanging from the superheater 
header in the smokebox ...  the effects of humidity in the ambient atmosphere humidity 
in that display locale.

Wes Camp



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/21 13:34 by wcamp1472.



Date: 03/01/21 11:19
Re: So What's the Deal With "T&P 909"?
Author: BoilingMan

So- are there any other NYC steam saved?
If not, “909” was, in the end, a rather fortunate debacle I suppose.
SR



Date: 03/01/21 11:22
Re: So What's the Deal With "T&P 909"?
Author: wcamp1472

I think there's an L2 MohawK,  NYC 2933, at St. Louis Museum ...
Also, 4-4-0, NYC 999 is on display..Chgo(?) ..

Wes

 



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/21 14:03 by wcamp1472.



Date: 03/01/21 11:23
Re: So What's the Deal With "T&P 909"?
Author: HotWater

BoilingMan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So- are there any other NYC steam saved?

Yes, but only smaller locomotives.

> If not, “909” was, in the end, a rather
> fortunate debacle I suppose.
> SR

Absolutely!



Date: 03/01/21 11:45
Re: So What's the Deal With "T&P 909"?
Author: tomstp

As mentioned previously the NYC engine  was bought (purchase price $5,000) from the NYC , shipped to Marshall Tx.   It was "T&P ized" there and then moved to Dallas to the Texas State Fair grounds, all this at  T&P"s expense.  They made it look as much as possible as a T&P class M-2 905-909 series  4-8-2.   The only good thing about it was it caused a Railroad Museum of the Southwest  to be formed.  A fence was erected around the 4-8-2 and other items it obtained.  For many years steam was available so people could pull the cord on 5 or 6 types of steam whistles.  Later on the Fair wanted the railroad museum to leave.  Several of the steam engines had gotten rotten looking.  The museum folks started cleaning up the equipment on display.  Others can detail what all much better than I can. The museum traded the NYC engine for a pennsy GG1.

As far as the condition of the 4-8-2 no one did anything to keep it operable, not NYC, T&P, or the museum.  But I must say T&P came out loser on the whole deal of steam for the fair.  One scrapped, one traded away.  But that made Ft Worth protect the 610 puting a fence around it in 1955.  For a couple of years a attendent was on hand to let people in the cab on week ends and the Fat Stock Show.

BNSF I know contributed their time and equipment in moving all the items to Frisco Tx.  That was very nice of them.



Date: 03/01/21 13:48
Re: So What's the Deal With "T&P 909"?
Author: CP8888

NYC 999 is at The Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago where it is well preserved and not for sale.

Posted from Android



Date: 03/01/21 16:23
Re: So What's the Deal With "T&P 909"?
Author: Willsburg765

NYC 2933 at the St. Louis Transportation Museum, September 10, 2017.  My photo.

Joe




Date: 03/01/21 17:28
Re: So What's the Deal With "T&P 909"?
Author: nycman

NYC 909 is not in Chicago.  You guys have got the two Mohawks identified, they are the only two mainline NY Central engines in existence today.  I will post pix of 3001 when I can find them.



Date: 03/01/21 17:35
Re: So What's the Deal With "T&P 909"?
Author: HotWater

nycman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NYC 909 is not in Chicago. 

To my knowledge NOBODY has stated that the "NYC 909" is in Chicago, whatever THAT is. What IS in Chicago, at the Museum of Science and Industry, is "NYC 999"!

You guys have got the
> two Mohawks identified, they are the only two
> mainline NY Central engines in existence today. 
> I will post pix of 3001 when I can find them.



Date: 03/01/21 19:42
Re: So What's the Deal With "T&P 909"?
Author: wabash2800

There is a Michigan Central 4-4-2 at Dearborn Village in Michigan.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhiilepublications.com



Date: 03/02/21 02:51
Re: So What's the Deal With "T&P 909"?
Author: Evan_Werkema

Another "small" ex-NYC engine is on display in Fairview, OK.  It's Santa Fe 2-8-0 #2522, built as NYC #2976 in 1910 and sold to the Kansas City Mexico & Orient as their #66 in 1927.  Santa Fe acquired it along with the KCM&O in 1929, and donated it to Fairview (along the former Orient) in 1954. 

https://www.steamlocomotive.com/whyte/2-8-0/USA/photos/atsf2522-wessel2.jpg
https://goo.gl/maps/YRF2p3qH6r7e61Gt7



Date: 03/02/21 09:41
Re: So What's the Deal With "T&P 909"?
Author: wag216

There is a NYC 2-8-0 at Ark City, Ks. Ex KCM&O, later AT&SF. wag216



Date: 03/02/21 16:52
Re: So What's the Deal With "T&P 909"?
Author: New773

There’s also NYC 0-6-0 6894 rotting away at Whitewater Valley in Connersville, Indiana.



Date: 03/02/21 18:34
Re: So What's the Deal With "T&P 909"?
Author: wabash2800

From what I understand, two NYC 0-6-0s survive. I have color photos of the NYC 2-8-0 at Fairview, Oklahoma, formerly a KCM&O loco, sent to me but hadn't heard about the one in Kansas??? I find that suspect.  A  G-43, 2-8-0 built for the LS&MS and later as New York Central 5780 is on the shore of Eagle Lake in Maine. (I wrote a Trains magazine article about the class years ago and visited the location.)  It ran on a logging railroad there before it was retired during the Great Depression.

There is also a 4-6-0 at Eagle Lake, that according to the late Bill Edson, was built for a NYC predecessor (Chicago, Hammond & Western, IIRC?). Builder plates were long gone but Bill had access to federal boiler records and visited the engines in the early 1960s when the ten-wheeler still had its faded, old loco number as a hand me down from the Grassy River in New York, IIRC. (I have a large file and correspondence from Bill.)  For those of you not familiar with Bill Edson, in addition to specializing in published steam loco rosters, he also worked with the Federal Railroad Administration.

I photographed the boiler number on the 5780 on the steam dome under the cover and it matched up with the the federal boiler records Bill shared with me.  But I suppose there are those who dispute the other engine, the ten-wheeler. I didn't get the boiler number on the ten-wheeler, but if it was there, I should have. If anyone reading this has access to the boiler number on the ten-wheeler, perhaps we can match it up to a federal boiler number on record to get this settled once and for all. Again, builder plates were pilfered long ago, but perhaps they exist in someones collection.

There was an article in the Central Headlight published by the NYCSHS years ago about remaining NYC steam locos. There is some speculation that some early twentieth century or late nineteenth century NYC Lines  locos made it to South America via the second-hand market.

I suppose the NKP 587 could be considered part of the New York Central Lines as it was built for the Lake Erie & Western that was at one time in the NYC Lines fold? Was it built before the LE&W was spun off to the NKP?

It is crying shame that a New York Central Hudson did not survive; but I am preaching to the choir. (There is a joke that God sent Pearlman straight to hell for that shortcoming.) I suppose we should be thankful for what is still around.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com

New773 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There’s also NYC 0-6-0 6894 rotting away at
> Whitewater Valley in Connersville, Indiana.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/21 18:56 by wabash2800.



Date: 03/03/21 00:09
Re: So What's the Deal With "T&P 909"?
Author: Evan_Werkema

ATSF 2522 in Fairview, OK is the only preserved former KCM&O locomotive that was built for New York Central.  Two other ex-KCM&O 2-8-0's still exist, ATSF 2542 in Arkansas City and 2546 in Marceline, MO (ex-KCM&O 208 and 212 respectively), but they were built new for the Orient in 1910.



Date: 03/03/21 08:30
Re: So What's the Deal With "T&P 909"?
Author: wabash2800

Thank you Evan.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com

Evan_Werkema Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ATSF 2522 in Fairview, OK is the only preserved
> former KCM&O locomotive that was built for New
> York Central.  Two other ex-KCM&O 2-8-0's still
> exist, ATSF 2542 in Arkansas City and 2546 in
> Marceline, MO (ex-KCM&O 208 and 212 respectively),
> but they were built new for the Orient in 1910.



Date: 03/03/21 09:14
Re: So What's the Deal With "T&P 909"?
Author: PVSfan

After talking with persons who were familiar with the situation, I've gotten the sense that T&P #638
had suffered minor vandalism and theft of appliances but it was not overall in such bad shape that
a cosmetic restoration was impossible.
I think it galled T&P management that the State Fair of Texas did not maintain the donation well enough.
Being civic minded, T&P tried again with #909 only to have it traded off---for a GG-1 no less!



Date: 03/03/21 09:35
Re: So What's the Deal With "T&P 909"?
Author: SantaFeCF7

Evan_Werkema Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ATSF 2522 in Fairview, OK is the only preserved
> former KCM&O locomotive that was built for New
> York Central.  Two other ex-KCM&O 2-8-0's still
> exist, ATSF 2542 in Arkansas City and 2546 in
> Marceline, MO (ex-KCM&O 208 and 212 respectively),
> but they were built new for the Orient in 1910.

We love our 2546! We also have had SD40 5008 for about 3 years now as well. 



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