Steam & Excursion > Knox & Kane Dreams

I wonder why someone hasn't stepped up and run an excursion train from Kane,PA
to the Kinzua bridge overlook. Truly a beautiful site. My only regret is I got to ride over
the bridge once before the tornado. Thoughts?

pt199 Wrote:
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> I wonder why someone hasn't stepped up and run an
> excursion train from Kane,PA
> to the Kinzua bridge overlook. Truly a beautiful
> site. My only regret is I got to ride over
> the bridge once before the tornado. Thoughts?

Mainly because the rail has been taken up and scrapped in many places….. probably like 90% of it and the bridges have been completely neglected and also probably need extensive/major work indeed.

Posted from iPhone

And, also probably because its in the middle of nowhere, with no other tourist draws.

Okay.  So OTHER than all that...

Mary McPherson
Dongola, IL
Diverging Clear Productions

I was lucky enough to ride it back in 1997, although had I had ANY idea just what horrible condition the trestle was in, I wouldn't have allowed any of my family members to go anywhere near it. I don't think the overlook alone would be enough to draw many customers even if it were possible to bring it back. You could do the same thing by car for free. That operation and the line itself looked to have one foot in the grave 30+ years ago.

Posted from iPhone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/23 18:00 by junctiontower.

junctiontower Wrote:
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 I don't think the overlook alone would
> be enough to draw many customers even if it were
> possible to bring it back. 

Four years ago, we visited the Kinzua Bridge overlook.  The parking lot was jammed with vehicles and there was a big crowd on the remaining portion of the bridge.

RuleG Wrote:
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> junctiontower Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>  I don't think the overlook alone would
> > be enough to draw many customers even if it
> were
> > possible to bring it back. 
>
> Four years ago, we visited the Kinzua Bridge
> overlook.  The parking lot was jammed with
> vehicles and there was a big crowd on the
> remaining portion of the bridge.

Yes, and they didn't need to buy a ticket on a train coming from nowhere to go up on the bridge. I'm not saying NOBODY would ride the train ( I would), just not enough to support such an operation. The place wasn't exactly flush with cash when it DID operate.

Posted from iPhone

The bridge park's website notes that inspectors found the bridge to be severely at risk years before it collapsed.

Posted from Android

For those interested in a K&K photo gallery I have a nice colection of pictures I took when the Kinzua Viaduct still hosted trains up on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/carl.fowler.7355

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
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> The bridge park's website notes that inspectors
> found the bridge to be severely at risk years
> before it collapsed.
>
> Posted from Android

Which makes you wonder why nobody stopped train trips over the trestle. I had family living in Bradford PA at the time and we came over from Indiana to visit and we all rode the train. None of us had the slightest inkling that it might be unsafe.

Posted from iPhone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/23 21:35 by junctiontower.

I believe the sequence was the trains went to, but not over the bridge after the initial inspections which concluded there was a problem. People could walk out onto the bridge. Then, the bridge itself was determined to be unsafe, so pedestrian traffic was prohibited.

An engineering firm developed plans to strengthen the bridge, and began work.  A few months later the tornado hit, and much of the bridge went down.

I'm not certain that trains operated onto the bridge after there was a determination the bridge was unsafe.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
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> I believe the sequence was the trains went to, but
> not over the bridge after the initial inspections
> which concluded there was a problem. People could
> walk out onto the bridge. Then, the bridge itself
> was determined to be unsafe, so pedestrian traffic
> was prohibited.
>
> An engineering firm developed plans to strengthen
> the bridge, and began work.  A few months later
> the tornado hit, and much of the bridge went
> down.
>
> I'm not certain that trains operated onto the
> bridge after there was a determination the bridge
> was unsafe.

Your timeline does seem correct to me, but how was the bridge allowed to get to that point before the trains were stopped? The timeline between unsafe for trains and unsafe for pedestrians should have been DECADES if someone was actually paying attention.

Posted from iPhone

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I believe the sequence was the trains went to, but
> not over the bridge after the initial inspections
> which concluded there was a problem. People could
> walk out onto the bridge. Then, the bridge itself
> was determined to be unsafe, so pedestrian traffic
> was prohibited.
>
> An engineering firm developed plans to strengthen
> the bridge, and began work.  A few months later
> the tornado hit, and much of the bridge went
> down.

In 1988, my nephew and I chased this operation, which was running with a Chinese 2-8-2, and indeed the train backed onto the bridge but did not pass over it. 

There hadn't been freight traffic on that line in many years. 

As for the collapse, wasn't that a wind-load problem during a big storm?



>
> I'm not certain that trains operated onto the
> bridge after there was a determination the bridge
> was unsafe.

march_hare Wrote:
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> As for the collapse, wasn't that a wind-load
> problem during a big storm?
>
An F1 tornado (wind speeds 73 - 112 mph) destroyed half the viaduct.  Source:

https://www.dcnr.pa.gov/StateParks/FindAPark/KinzuaBridgeStatePark/Pages/History.aspx

OK, to get a few things straight here....

First, Erie abandoned the bridge back in 1959, and it became a state park just for the bridge and immediate area.  Track was pulled up then.  Erie coal traffic went over B&O south to Brockway on parallel trackage rights over that portion.   No rail service for decades. 

When CSX abandoned the Mt. Jewett -Marienville-Knox branch when coal traffic out of Lucinda stopped, Sloan Cornell picked up the entire 60-mile branch.   With the funds he got from selling the first refusal contract on the Warren-Erie segment to Hammermill, he bought the Chinese 2-8-2 and relaid new track back to the bridge.   That was all new rail and ties from Mt. Jewett up, it was some of the nicest track you'd see and the 2-8-2 could even strut a bit.   Below Mt. Jewett, well, that was a different matter.  That was originally narrow gauge and there were stumps it went around when it was originally built.  There was a pin-connected steel truss at Kane over top of the ex-PRR line that had a weight limit that was so bad that the GP's on the lines had tiny fuel tanks!   Rail wasn't awful but roadbed was cinders and wood trestles in places.  The only customers were a glass plant in Marienville and a few cars of lumber.   The fiberboard plant at N. Clarion reopened briefly as a rail customer and there were embargoes and derailments, reclosing that end a second time.

The Kinzua bridge didn't belong to the railroad, and the railroad got an agreement to run over the bridge, as in 'not my bridge' and this was before FRA mandated annual bridge inspections.  It was still State Park property; the railroad couldn't even unload or load pasengers at the park, which was a PITA.   You detrained in a mowed field at the north end, where a new wye was built to turn the train.

The bridge was certainly designed to take it for coal traffic, but two things did it in.   First, the regional acid rain was eating the steel girders at the base of piers; they were actually showing signs of full perforation on the ends- saw the photos.   That's what shut it down.   What the repairs were doing were replacing that, working from the ends toward the middle.  That's when the tornado hit.  What was also discovered was that the bolts to the foundation pedestals has never been replaced or upgraded since the original Phoenix iron bridge was there and were just too short.  That combination allowed anything that hadn't been repaired to blow over.  What remains today are the ends that had been repaired.   So it was actively being saved, just too late and bad luck.   After that, the K&K only lasted as a tourist railroad for two more seasons with very few riders when you couldn't even get the bridge.  Remember, it was 2000' long and 300' up, a real pucker experience. Walking it was much worse than riding it!

Kovalchick bought the entire Knox & Kane from Cornell, filed the abandonment, and removed all the rail.  There was an effort to preserve Kane to the bridge and Mt. Jewett to the bridge, it was actively fought by trail interests.   A new visitors center has been built, it's quite good, but there's no way you're getting trains up there again.  The B&P (ex-B&O) is only a few thousand feet away from the park entrance road, but that's G&W owned and don't talk to them about excursions, not going to happen.   It gets a lot more visitors than you'd think.  The big regional attraction is now the Seneca Casino in Salamanca driving numbers.

The Chinese 2-8-2 was involved in the Kane enginehouse fire after the line shut down, and was bought by Dave Conrad and the Valley Railroad, got redone into a New Haven 2-8-2, and is alive and well up on the Essex as their prime locomotive.   Cars went to the 4 winds, but nearly all made it.   The Clarion County part has turned into an excellent bike rail trail, but the Forest County Part is at best, an ATV trail rutted path.   McKean from Mt Jewett to the bridge is now a trail.   Only industry left in Marienville is the state prison, and the tourist business into Marienville pretty much dried up entirely.   The ex-B&O depots at Marienville, Lucinda, and Kane survive.

If you were there in the summer, ridership was kind of light, but in the fall foliage season it was capacity with 700-800 per trip, every car he had, and a diesel pusher on the rear to get over the road.  The run from Marienville to the bridge and back was an all-day adventure for sure; most riders just did Kane to the bridge and back.   My favorite oddball features was going across the live golf course above Kane where play had to be suspended while the train crossed (6577 Kane Lantz Corners Rd in Google Earth), and at Russell City where the track went right between the gun club benches and the target area (1354 PA Rt. 948).  Sloans water tank is still standing at Russell City (see 1574 PA Rt. 948 in Google Earth).   

Here's the short read on the engineering analysis of the collapse:  https://www.pspe.org/pdfs/reporter06_Mar_Apr-1.pdf
 



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/23 17:28 by randgust.