Steam & Excursion > Cotton Belt 819 in Illinois

June 1990
After the great 1990 NRHS Convention in St.Louis, 819 is headed home to Pine Bluff in Illinois.

Gary

 

---

That's a very nice photo, looks like back in the 1940's or 50's for sure.
John in White Marsh, Maryland

I wonder if this was the run when they had to burn diesel

bankshotone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder if this was the run when they had to burn
> diesel

For what it's worth, all that smoke is NOT from "burning diesel" fuel, but how the "old guy" Engineer was running poor 819!

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bankshotone Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I wonder if this was the run when they had to
> burn
> > diesel
>
> For what it's worth, all that smoke is NOT from
> "burning diesel" fuel, but how the "old guy"
> Engineer was running poor 819!

I wondered because the fireman told me on the trip leaving St Louis they had to take a load of diesel, I don't remember the reasoning.

Posted from Android

We forgot the train loaded passengers on the Illinois side.  Oops.

By the time we realized our blunder, it was too late: she was GONE!  We saw some distant smoke just north of Chester, but that is all we saw of this train that day.  Little consolation, but we were not the only ones waiting around at Gratiot Tower.

When we got to Gorham, there was not even a trace of distant smoke and the motorcade was gone.  We gave up and shot diesels the rest of the afternoon.

Mary McPherson
Dongola, IL
Diverging Clear Productions

---

I was onboard that train with several friends . Thanks for posting this slide. 

I was with you, UP951West!
The day's woes were just beginning.  Still I would not have missed the excursion.

Steve Lee offered to buy them a load of oil at St Louis and got a snotty answer, so their fireman had to suffer all the way back home from crappy running.
Is this the trip where they launched the whistle and had to have a diesel on the point somewhere south?
 

Frisco1522 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Steve Lee offered to buy them a load of oil at St
> Louis and got a snotty answer, so their fireman
> had to suffer all the way back home from crappy
> running.
> Is this the trip where they launched the whistle
> and had to have a diesel on the point somewhere
> south?

Correct on both counts, Don.

This sounds like a comedy of errors. For those of us that were farming in 1990 and had not gotten into this insane industry yet, what the hell’s the story?
TIA.

Regards

Posted from iPhone

Drknow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This sounds like a comedy of errors. For those of
> us that were farming in 1990 and had not gotten
> into this insane industry yet, what the hell’s
> the story?
> TIA.
>
> Regards

Briefly, the "management" of the 819 group were a few old guys, and ruled with an iron fist. Thus, whenever the engine operated, they always had an "old timer" retired Cotton Belt Engineer, that had been in service on steam power. Although he hadn't run steam in many decades, he was always in the right hand seat. Having seen the in-cab video (shot by Jim Boyd, of R&R Magazine), and talked with a number of the crew members, the "old guy" kept poor 819 "hooked up" way too high on the power reverse gear, plus having a reduced throttle, meant that the Fireman always had insufficient draft (remember, 819 is an oil burner). The poor Fireman had to run the blower full blast and use pretty high atomizer, which produced lots of thick black smoke, still being short on steam pressure.most of the time.

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Briefly, the "management" of the 819 group were a
> few old guys, and ruled with an iron fist. Thus,
> whenever the engine operated, they always had an
> "old timer" retired Cotton Belt Engineer, that had
> been in service on steam power. Although he hadn't
> run steam in many decades, he was always in the
> right hand seat. Having seen the in-cab video
> (shot by Jim Boyd, of R&R Magazine), and talked
> with a number of the crew members, the "old guy"
> kept poor 819 "hooked up" way too high on the
> power reverse gear, plus having a reduced
> throttle, meant that the Fireman always had
> insufficient draft (remember, 819 is an oil
> burner). The poor Fireman had to run the blower
> full blast and use pretty high atomizer, which
> produced lots of thick black smoke, still being
> short on steam pressure.most of the time.

Appreciate that info. What's the story on the type of oil used?

ts1457 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HotWater Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Briefly, the "management" of the 819 group were
> a
> > few old guys, and ruled with an iron fist.
> Thus,
> > whenever the engine operated, they always had
> an
> > "old timer" retired Cotton Belt Engineer, that
> had
> > been in service on steam power. Although he
> hadn't
> > run steam in many decades, he was always in the
> > right hand seat. Having seen the in-cab video
> > (shot by Jim Boyd, of R&R Magazine), and talked
> > with a number of the crew members, the "old
> guy"
> > kept poor 819 "hooked up" way too high on the
> > power reverse gear, plus having a reduced
> > throttle, meant that the Fireman always had
> > insufficient draft (remember, 819 is an oil
> > burner). The poor Fireman had to run the blower
> > full blast and use pretty high atomizer, which
> > produced lots of thick black smoke, still being
> > short on steam pressure.most of the time.
>
> Appreciate that info. What's the story on the type
> of oil used?

I don't remember what they used for fuel down in Pine Bluff, but when they wound up "short on fuel" in St Louis, as mentioned previously, Steve Lee offered to provide them a load of the fuel that the UP was using (probably reprocessed waste oil, which was good stuff). They turned down his offer, and went with #2 diesel fuel, which is never a good fuel for large oil burning steam locomotives, such as 819. Besides the #2 diesel fuel, they way the "old guy" was using the throttle and reverse gear, it was a REALLY BAD DAY for the poor Firemen!

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't remember what they used for fuel down in
> Pine Bluff, but when they wound up "short on fuel"
> in St Louis, as mentioned previously, Steve Lee
> offered to provide them a load of the fuel that
> the UP was using (probably reprocessed waste oil,
> which was good stuff). They turned down his offer,
> and went with #2 diesel fuel, which is never a
> good fuel for large oil burning steam locomotives,
> such as 819. Besides the #2 diesel fuel, they way
> the "old guy" was using the throttle and reverse
> gear, it was a REALLY BAD DAY for the poor
> Firemen!

Good grief!

The #819 heading south thru Chester, IL the same day.

John Carpenter photo

---

bodkin6071 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The #819 heading south thru Chester, IL the same
> day.
>
> John Carpenter photo


The fireman that day told me there was so much smoke they put out the sun..

Too much smoke?  I think this might have been part of the return trip in 1990.



 

---

Sooo...
The 'smoke' is unburned carbon fuel, but also in the mix is
a very high percentage of carbon monoxide,  which is also an eminently 
burnable fuel.  

Naturally, the firebox temperature is 1200 F to 1600F, whereas 
a clear stack, and good draft easily gets to 3000F temperatures.

Oil burners use restricted inlet-air regulating arrangements, relying heavily
on a strong draft produced in the smokebox.  
No draft, insufficient oxygen.

 Remember that ideai air/fuel mixture ration is 16:1, oxygen-to-(gaseous state)
-carbon.  And that's "by weight". ---- so, a pound of carbon requires 16 pounds 
of oxygen..... and 16 lbs of O2, & at normal pressures, involves hundreds of cubic 
feet of air, of which O2 only makes up 20% of air --- 80% of air is Nitrogen, 
an inert gas.... less than .25% is other inert gases.

Remember, also a high percentage of that sticky-smoke is coating all the 
fire tubes with a thick layer of carbon --- a very effective insulating-layer,
between any flames and the cold water.
  (A 1/8" thick layer of soot, is 90% effective insulator... )
You get no heat transfer to the water---- and even MORE restriction 
of air-flow through the tubes .....  

Attempts at 'sanding the flues', would only result in a pile of sand on
the floor of the firepan!

FORGET ABOUT any steam superheating when you see black smoke, this consistently!
Oh, well.

Who 's ever firing has a hopeless job.
Its no wonder he ran out of fuel!.
He'd be better off, simply matching the minimal air-flow, by cutting 
back on the oil ---- and of course, the train will stop...because the 
engineer is too stupid and his managers are tolerant of his stupidity.

​W.

 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/24 14:57 by wcamp1472.

That looks to be somewhere between Wolf Lake and Reynoldsville.

redberan4449 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Too much smoke?  I think this might have been
> part of the return trip in 1990.
>
>
>
>  



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/24 16:08 by bodkin6071.