Steam & Excursion > Be nice if EBT rents a steam engine

It would be fantastic if EBT could rents a steamer this summer as so many fans have postpone a visit till this summer to see the new track construction. The cracked hub on the driver could not happen at a worst time. You realized how rare NG steam is on the east coast if you want to lease an engine for the summer that has FRA clearance.  It would be great if the East Broad Top RR could locate a operable steam locomotive because their engines need repairs on the drive wheels.  There is a SS&S #26  rod engine, and a small Shay at Pine Creek RR in Adlair State Park, NJ, but both are out of service with no repairs planned. There is a Baldwin #5, a 2-4-2, former Hawaii RR #5 which just operated late week for the Spring Meet at CAMA in Kent, Ct.  It only had CT boiler inspection and needs a automatic train brake air control valve. They want to put a new control valve in the engine and it could be done at Rockhill, but PA would have to accept the CT boiler inspection. One nice near by engine would be Waynesboro & Washington RR #4 but it has vacuum brakes and also no train air brakes. It needs a new PA boiler inspection and does not have a FRA class 4 rebuild. It is class as a Pennsylvania RR engine and would look great on the East Broad Top RR & Coal Co.  But a special  engine I think would make up for the missing EBT Mikado engines wouid be the New Mexico Lbr/Oregon Lumber 3T Shay #7 at Heston IN.  That was the last 3’ gauge Shay built and it normal speed is exactly that the EBT operates at to reach the Colgate Grove.  
The Shay type engine is not unknown to Rockhill Furance as the McKelvey Brothers Logging Railroad operated two 2-truck Shays in interchanging loaded lumber and log cars to the EBT. Folks here on TO I do not understand how deep this problem is on the EBT. Drivers have been cracking and welding is being done on spokes but the hub is where the casting is pressed on the axle and that must stay tight. One EBT engine now has a circular ring plate hammered over a hub when cherry red and when it cooled it tightened the hub crack and was ruled FRA legal. But the Foundation see that a temporary fix and wants to replace that wheel also.

The one photo show cracked driver (red arrows) that were removed and are outside the roundhouse wall. The other photo of a driver show the newer casting with a D shaped counter weight which is a replacement. Even when you have a new casting made, note that most are different to a specific size and location, it has to be machined to install the crank pin, and then pressed on a new axle. It could newly crack at that point on the hub, or after a short period of new use, it could develop a new crack and you are back to where you were without a steam engine. It is a real challenge.
   There is one engine that ran at Rockhill Furnace in 1970 that is a FRA legal engine now in storage out of service for sale, but it is at the other side of America. It is a Porter 2-4-0ST that was rebuilt as a 2-4-2. It ran as part of the Lahana, Kaanapall & Pacific RR as #1 for a number of years in Hawaii but the railroad was shut down and ordered off the land they were using, and equipment put into storage. Then on Aug 8, 2023 a fire burned over half the railroad, but this locomotive was not in the fire and could be used again to Cottage Grove.
These are not photo of the new crack in the Number 16 drivers.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/24 16:54 by PlyWoody.

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 Photo is at Orbisonia-Rockhill Furnace of LK&P #1



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/24 11:45 by PlyWoody.

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This is probably just railfan fantasy but SP #18 sometimes is leased to D&SNG, at least it has been in the past. Is it even reasonable to truck SP #18 clear across the country for a season of operation at EBT? 

Redwater Wrote:
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> This is probably just railfan fantasy but SP #18
> sometimes is leased to D&SNG, at least it has been
> in the past. Is it even reasonable to truck SP #18
> clear across the country for a season of operation
> at EBT? 

I was thinking about that engine as well.

Truck the 18 to Searles Jct and put it on a flat car.

Out 

No it wouldn't. Most of the draw is everything is home to that railroad. The rail, buildings, machinery, rolling stock, etc.

Posted from Android

Good thread. Many suggestions

Posted from Android

trainman Wrote:
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> No it wouldn't. Most of the draw is everything is
> home to that railroad. The rail, buildings,
> machinery, rolling stock, etc.

Most of the draw for nearly everyone BUT railfans,
but including many railfans is... STEAM.  I like the
idea - load it on a flat car and ship 95% of the way
by rail!  Would be "fun" though not sure the cost
would merit such a move.

/Mitch

callum_out Wrote:
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> Truck the 18 to Searles Jct and put it on a flat
> car.
>
> Out 

Probably would arrive damaged, and take more than a month.

HotWater Wrote:
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> Probably would arrive damaged, and take more than
> a month.

Are we shipping it FedEx?  Probably get delivered to the Everett Railroad by accident, too.

Mary McPherson
Dongola, IL
Diverging Clear Productions

A "blind" driver?  One manufactured with no flange?

Also, if that IS a  the,  thecoaltire looks wayyy too thin..
It implicates that all the drivers of the 'set' are also as thin..
Worn thin tires and lumpy-track could be a contributing factor 
to the cracked spokes..

​W.

A "blind" driver?  One manufactured with no flange.
Also, if that IS a tire, it looks wayyy too thin..

It implicates that all the 7 drivers of the 'set' are also as thin..
putting other wheel-centers at-risk.

Worn-thin tires and lumpy-track + aging could be a contributing factor 
to the cracked spokes..

​W.

wcamp1472 Wrote:
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Don't make Fake statements.  There is no lumpy track on the new rebuilt EBT and it is so smooth we hear fans complaining it is not like a narrow gauge any more.  Don't imply something when you have not ridden the EBT in a Decade, WES.



> A "blind" driver?  One manufactured with no
> flange.
> Also, if that IS a tire, it looks wayyy too
> thin..
>
> It implicates that all the 7 drivers of the 'set'
> are also as thin..
> putting other wheel-centers at-risk.
>
> Worn-thin tires and lumpy-track + aging could be a
> contributing factor 
> to the cracked spokes..
>
> ​W.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/24 06:18 by PlyWoody.

For clarity, much of tte EBT's early life, saw service on lumpy track..
And, the cumllative effect of age and prior abuse, can weaken 
castings,...such that they fail, once returned to current service.

If I'm seeing worn tires, that's also a contributing factor,
because they reached condemning-limits, decades ago.

I'd bet that this cracked driver is the Main driver, on the affected 
engine... This cracking can be much more the fault of 
weakend tires and age, and not an implication of the example of
nice, smooth new trackwork..

Strong, thick tires do a lot to support and compress  the cast 
wheel centers.... these tires are too thin to give much support
to the driver-centers.

Also, this cracking is a sure sign that the poorly-supported, wheel-center
which has been for 'flexing' decades.  

You don't get thin tires as a result of intermittent use, hauling 
excursion cars.... It comes from hard, daily freight-use, and 
continuing to use the tires --- beyond their intended useful-life.

Also, with new, weak tire centers, (by improper design), will also 
be prone to cracking.  An example is the disk-like Scullin-disk drivers
of the 1930s and 40s.   As they cracked in daily service,  they were
replaced by Boxpok drivers.  I don't know of any extant, preserved 
specimens of Scullin Disk Drivers..

The General Steel Casting's 'Boxpok' ( box-spoke) driver centers 
are a much stronger design, but they still, physically 
weigh much less, than comparable, plain-spoked drivers.
As the name implies, these wheel-centers are cast-steel,
not cast, gray-iron , commonly used for earlier, spoked driver-centers 
That's imposrtant at high driver RPMs.

That''s why you'll see photos of many locos from 
modernization & rebuilding programs fitted with Boxpok
drivers at the Main driver location, ( their cranks, powered
directly by the piston thrusts)  and use of spoked, additional drivers,
which are subjected to lower reciprocating forces of the power-strokes.

The spoked drivers at other axle locations, on the same loco frame,
as the lighter Main drivers, experience much lower piston-thrusts and
their own masses and counterweights are far lighter.  
So, at track speeds, the drivers, other than Main drivers will continue
to be used on rebuilt locos.
Most rebuilds applied  all-new, and strong tires, to match the new, Boxpok
main drivers.  It's crucial that all drivers be of the same diameter,
so that they all wear at the same rate.

If the rest of the driver tires are comparably worn, I'll bet that EBT
is looking at installing a complete set of new driver-tires, as well as
solving the cracked wheel center problems.

All driver tires, on side-rod connected driver arrangements, must be of the same 
diametric and circumferential dimensions, for obvious reasons.

Diesels, with independently geared motors can use different ( within limits) 
diameter drivers;  so, on 3- axle trucks, the center wheel-set can have thinner 
tires.


W.

( Up date:
  I was advised --- on line--- that the tires had been removed...
    before the picture was snapped, and that other wheels on the EBT  
    locos were cracked similarly to this one, over the years..)


 



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/24 23:45 by wcamp1472.

Great info. Thanks, Wes.

Regards

Posted from iPhone

Also, with new, weak tire centers, (by improper design), will also 
be prone to cracking.  An example is the disk-like Scullin-disk drivers
of the 1930s and 40s.   As they cracked in daily service,  they were
replaced by Boxpok drivers.  I don't know of any extant, preserved 
specimens of Scullin Disk Drivers..

1522 has a Scullin main driver,  Frisco was a big user of them.  New 4-8-2s 4300-4310 and a number of the 4400-4422 class 4-8-2s were all Scullin as many of their other engines had Scullin main.
NYC used them on 4-8-2s and 4-6-4s.  I don't recall ever reading that they were troublesome.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/24 16:56 by Frisco1522.

Thanks for the additional facts about Scullin driver centers.
I'm not sure of the source for my information, it might be from an 
uninformed origin.

Enlightenment is always appreciated.

W.

Along with a large group of PRR Technical and Hitorical Society members, I visited the EBT May 9.   The highlight of the visit was a specially arranged in-depth tour of the EBT shops and roundhouse.  The tour was guided by senior employees of the railroad.  We were able to see number 16's damaged driver center up close, and saw the steps in progress being taken to repair the cracked spokes. While not committing to a specific date for 16's return to service due, the EBT staff express confidence that it will be hauling reverse passengers this summer, My take away was that  the EBT has the commitment, resources, facilities, and know how to return 16 to service.  While working to repair 16's cracked driver, the EBT shop force has begun restoration of sister mikado number 15, meanwhile a center cab GE diesel is the protect power.