Steam & Excursion > Nickel Plate 765 and Throttle Time

The Indiana Rail Experience has scheduled "Throttle Time" with Nickel Plate 2-8-4 No. 765 for all day Monday, September 2, on the Indiana Northeastern Railroad.  While I have no interest in running the locomotive, I am wondering if there are any good photo opportunities on a day when 765 runs Throttle Time.  What sort of train is attached, if any?  I understand that runs are made only at 10 mph.  Which way is the locomotive currently facing (i.e. would the best photos be in the morning or afternoon)?  Will the NKP SD9 be running as well?    

I had to work this weekend and am off only on Labor Day itself.  While some regular diesel-powered freights still run on Labor Day, most of the holiday weekend's special events have already concluded, either on the rails or elsewhere.        

I just did it back in June (fantastically fun, did both engineer and fireman). We were out at a pretty inaccessible spur at a dead end of the Indiana Northeastern (South Milford). I was hoping to fly my drone or catch shots with my 900mm zoom, but the entire 2-mile section is wooded over and has no grade crossings, so that was a bust. Still had a few railfans trespass across open farm fields to shoot my run, though; they must've trudged across 300 yards of open farmland to get some poor shots. The area for seeing 765 was private property at the grain elevator, so it was a rather exclusive event. Of course, all of this may be different, as we were originally listed for Pleasant Lake until the last minute.

765 is running light the whole time; I had more of a problem keeping it at 10 mph, as the throttle has to remain cracked open the whole time it's moving, which is counter to everything I've run on a diesel.

The safer course would be to have 3 or 4 cars for braking,
since you want stopping power, and you also want steam flow.

The 10 mph is a good, safe speed and trailing coaches 
ensure reliable stopping power, without overheating the driver tires.

Student runs with a light engine, and multiple students,
can set up conditions where repeatedly  'dragging the brakes'
can lead to multiple applications, over the course of the day,
leading cumulative heat build-up in the tires.

Keep your pocket, remote reading, digital thermometer 
handy, ---- one tool that's easy to carry, but can help a lot during
your walk-around loco inspections..  if I were conducting training guidance 
for firing students, I'd start at the ground level, and go from there. 

In actuality, it's a myth that steam flow provides the lubrication.
The designed lubrication scheme for the valves and pistons 
is to have a trickle of valve oil delivered into the superheated 
steam flow in the supply-steam piping just above the steam ports
over the the ported valve bushing.  

When hauling a designed-for load of, over 75 freight cars, and speeds
over 60-per, the superheated steam would be close to 700F ----
the tallow-based valve oil, on the delivery spoon, would instantly turn into
a greasy, blue-smoke being fed to the cylinders.

Shuttling around, with wet steam to the pistons, only results in the pumped 
valve oil dribbling off the 'spoon' situated in the steam path.  The slow
pumping speed of the mechanical lubricators results in cold valve-oil drooling
off the 'spoon', and dribbling-down-the passage walls, drooling past the valve bushing,
and down the cylinders' walls, below the steam ports.

Yes, the "theory" about constant lubrication makes it seem that a continuous steam 
flow is necessary. The reality is that such mis-beliefs do not actually occur, during
student sessions.  Shuttling around in a light engine requires a different approach
than needed at heavy loads and high track speeds.

In actual train service, the forces acting on the piston result in the piston, centering itself,
in the cylinder-bore, and the piston head 'floats' free of the bottom of the bore.
The sealing rings are kept tight against tye cykinder wall by a large diameter 
steel 'spring', and by steam pressure in the cylinders..  As speed slows ro a crawl,
the piston head rides on the lower half of the bore.

Student runs never produce hot-enough hot steam to the pistons and valves,
so there is no beneficial steam flow, oil-distribution to the valves and cylinder bores.

If, as owners; you're interested in providing lubrication to the pistons,
what's actually happening is that the low temperature steam condenses 
on the 'cold' piping and cylinder/valve walls. Condensed water is what's flowing
in the cold, vapor-laden condensed steam flow. In actuality, its water that's
doing any lubrication.  At low speeds and low heat, the mechanical lubricators 
for the cylinders are in effective. It's the hot steam flow that carries valve oil
to lubricate the valves and pistons. 

Because the low steam-flow is not strong enough to draft, or pull the firebox flames
into the flues containing the superheater tubing, and the distribution 'spoon',
above the valve bushing.   If you're truly concerned about lubrication at continuous,
slow speeds, you'll get better results with a generous amount of ( used) motor oil
poured into the steam chests at the valve ports.  ( while you're sitting around).

Also, what's  at work, is wear on the piston-rods' seals.  I'd add manual 'drip 
cups' to dribble a a few drops on the moving piston rods, and periodically I'd 
manually dribble oil on the exposed valve stem, above each piston.

So, I'd reccomend pulling a few cars, for braking  --- extending the life of my drivers'
brake shoes, as well as a more effective method  of piston-lubrication.  

If your goal is to protect against valve ring-wear, the high-moisture content 
of the low temperature steam will keep the valve bores happy.

Your cracked-open throttle is the factor that mitigates against the belief 
that your steam flow is providing/conveying useful lubrication to the cylinders.
That's the myth.

The low temperature steam leads to early condensation, and it's the water 
that's doing any actual 'lubrication'..

Be liberal with the open cylinder cocks. Closing them at these low steam temps
leads to condensed water accumulation in the pistons ---- especially with closed cylinder cocks,
the. increased pressure in the cylinders leads to the pressured-water state... where 
because of the ( greater than atmospheric) leads to water formation at the trapped 
steam at the pistons.  Opened cylinder cocks, while the cylinders are are still "cold", 
is a beneficial practice .

With closed cylinder cocks, especially the OKADEE air operated 'cocks,  
water condenses in the piston volume, threatening water-lock against your pistons.  

The air-operated cylinder cocks are held-open by 
keeping the check-ball UN-seated, the cylinder cocks are prevented  from 
closing  by compressed air acting on a small piston that has 
short stem reaching into the seal area, keeping the ball-check 
from seating, due to water accumulation, during extended periods 
of inactivity.  When the engineer 'closes' the cylinder cocks, he's 
actually removing air pressure from the small air-piston inside 
the OKADEEs..  The ball check then closes, when the pistons are pressured.

Its steam pressure that moves the steel ball to close the drain port.
Port-closing of the drain-cocks is a passive event --- in that removing
air presure only allows the ball cock to move against  the 'un-seating' 
pin connected to the air-piston.   It takes the cylinder's steam pressure
against the ball-check that actually seats the ball in it's closed position.

Of course, there are steam-closed cylinder cocks the were also sold by OKADEE.
They use steam pressure to close plug-type cylinder cocks.
WHENEVER, cylinder pressures get higher than boiler pressure, the
the steam-closed poppets are forced open, instantly relieving any trapped water!
4-8-4  Locos, SP 4449 and RDG 2102 are locos equipped from the builder
with steam-closed, cylinder cocks.

Another area that should get manual lubrication, is the sliding crossheads
and the crosshead guides.  Chesp grease. manually applied, would be better 
than relying on the mechanical lubricator's pumping strokes.  The lubricators 
are set to lubricate the guides at speeds over 20 mph.  Having students 
apply the grease manually, during the walk-arounds, teaches the value 
useful walk-around inspections.

There's a lot more to firing a Berk, than the stoker. and the blower valve,

​W.


 



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/24 09:19 by wcamp1472.

How much does throttle time cost on 765?   Assuming 30 minutes?

When I booked, it was $765 for 40 minutes as an engineer, and an additional $300 for the fireman's chair. Expensive, but a) still the opportunity of a lifetime for many of us, and b) still cheaper than most other steam throttle times. The Nevada Northern charges upwards of $3000.

Juxen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When I booked, it was $765 for 40 minutes as an
> engineer, and an additional $300 for the fireman's
> chair. Expensive, but a) still the opportunity of
> a lifetime for many of us, and b) still cheaper
> than most other steam throttle times. The Nevada
> Northern charges upwards of $3000.

A light engine rental on the NN is $1300.  A "with train" rental is $3700.  For that you get 90+ minutes of throttle time on a 15 mile round trip running on grades up to 2.5%.

Light engine rental covers the basics of the Indpendent Brake Valve, while the with train rental also gives you a course in automatic air braking.

If you joint the NNRY Museum, you get a discount.

E Knoob
NNRY Hogger and Rental Instructor.

What kind of brake stand are they using on the NN locos?

​W.

 

Nevada Northern and the offering with 765 are of course apples and oranges. Both have merit and a place on the bucket list.

The FRA waiver in place for this particular throttle time program with 765 dictates the consist (or lack thereof) and the location, speed, and distance.

Agreed; we were limited to 10 mph, no cars, and no grade crossings. Furthermore, there was no photography/phones in the cab while operating. The crew was very professional about it, but made it abundantly clear that they were following the FRA's rules to at T.

Thanks for the legal realities, and interpretations,that are at work.
It's hard to hold a loco to mph, without using the brakes.
I guess tte FRA forgot about the heating effects on loco tires,
from repeated braking applications.  I wasn't aware that the FRA 
was concerned with who the cab visitors were.

NKP, over time experienced derailment hazards with more delicate
aspects of brake rigging on pilot trucks --- so they removed them,
since they they remove truck's brake rigging before it became a
derailment problem.  
With the flat-land  running across the states west of Pennsylvania,
NKP had no need for a 'Mountsin-cock'; a slang term used on mountainous
RRs, for a cut-out cock that allowed the engineer the  capability of closing a
cut-out cock that was in the piping to the brake cylinders. ----  that allows the
engineer  to close-off the loco brake, so they don't apply, used when light engines 
are traveling  the main lines.

I'm 1968, when we first activated NKP 759, and we were bringing 759 east
for the first time since 1958, we made an overnight trip from Conneaut,
Ohio to New Jersey.  Our route took us over the Westerm Maryland RY.,
from Connelsville, Pa to  Hagerstown, Md, to Bethlehem, Pa., and to 
Lebanon, NJ's depot on the CNJ.

I was riding the whole way, and at Connelsville, Pa the Road Foreman who was 
to run the "light engine" ( no cars), asked if 759 had a Mountain Cock? ,
I answered a simple "no".  He was visibly disturbed, about the implications
for our rapid movement, ahead.  

Light engines are generally restricted by timetable rules, to 25 mph, if a steamer
has no trailing cars, running a 'light engine'.
A closed, mountain cock would have meant that only the 
759's tender trucks would have been equipped with operative brakes.
Cars are always preferable, to light engine moves, when it comes 
to steam locos.

So, we had a slow trip, in order to be able to stop safely, in case of an
unexpected signal, or people and vehicles that might be on our tracks.

Its why I preferred to have a couple coaches or other cars as 'braking' ,
so that  driver brakes only to be applied, once stopped.
With cars, we could operate at track speeds, with no restrictions.
It also applies to this day...

, 
​W.

 

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for the legal realities, and
> interpretations,that are at work.
> It's hard to hold a loco to mph, without using the
> brakes.
> I guess tte FRA forgot about the heating effects
> on loco tires,
> from repeated braking applications.  I wasn't
> aware that the FRA 
> was concerned with who the cab visitors were.
>

The FRA did not ask said operator to run "At the throttle", it was quite the opposite. The FRA does not care about tires overheating, that is "your" problem.

FRA: "You want to do "At the Throttle" with non-certified/trained engineers, here are the conditions, figure it out or don't do it."

FTWRHS has figured it out and do just fine with it.

I'm glad that opportunities for these ways of raising charitable money
using 'throttle-time' are available.

I'm impressed that UP was able to raise funds for the charity.
( I've lost track of which charity the money went to, anyone 
   know the beneficiary of the cash?)

Knowing how rare mainline steam is these days, it's 
good that there charitable ways to contribute to society,
using age the P.R. power of mainline steam locomotives.

My presumption that there are training/familiarty sessions ahead of time,
so that the guest engineers learn the basics of airbrakes, cylinder cocks,
etc. The 'cab-coaches', need to have the guests understand the language
and commands.

Throttle manipulation is fairly intuitive, as well as understanding the reverser.
Yes, there's true skill and fine-points involved; for the experienced;
but, for newbies they grasp the basics, easily.

In today's world, there's always the chance that idiots will stand in front 
of moving trains.  I sure wouldn't want to be in the engineer's seat!, or even
being in the cab!

​W.

 

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What kind of brake stand are they using on the NN
> locos?
>
> ​W.
>
>

6ET 

Union Pacific Museum in Council Bluffs, IA. afaik is the beneficiary.

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