Steam & Excursion > Had Enough of the UP 4014 - You may find this interesting.

TO friends,

I invite those who may find this type of information interesting to check out the post to Wes Camp from September 1, 2024. In that message, I provide helpful insight into the frequently discussed superheating commentary regarding the UP 4014.

While operating downgrade or while traveling along undulating or level track with what appears to be no audible exhaust sound present, the boiler pressure is very easily maintained - without the use of the blower on both the 844 and 4014. On these two locomotives, and others I have experienced, anything slightly above what we consider to be the “spot fire” on the oil-burning arrangement - the diesel equivalent of idle - the firebox temperatures are very high, and as mentioned before, so is the superheat output. If interested, you can observe the visible heat plume of combustion gases bellowing at 1940’s steam era 8% efficiency out of the twin-stacks, now imagine what the temperature of that exhaust plume really is. If you read my earlier post mentioned above, recall my comment regarding the high-superheat induced blue smoke radiating off the front engine components and both front and rear piston rods.

Let’s talk about that trusty SD-70 AcE; this important tool is working varying from idle up to run 8 - depending on what I need from it. (As a side note: one of these days, my colleagues from Omaha and I will publish event recorder data that tells the story of Power and Dynamic Braking behind the 4014) Perhaps at that particular segment in that video it was helping to accelerate the train based on operating conditions as I will explain further. There are other videos where we are ascending the grade, and it is at idle or nearly so. In my judgment and experience, having been over Donner multiple times on steam locomotives, I feel the proper way to handle the steam locomotive is in a manner that develops sufficient tractive force to stay just below quarter slipping. My long experience with this technique avoids the frequent, and often rapid throttle adjustments due to slipping, and the excessive use of sand. I feel this method is the right call for the conditions on Donner and provides good results for the observing fan and most importantly for the equipment and consumable resources under my control. It is also easier on the fireman, and let’s not forget that it makes for a nice, easy and consistent fuel/water consumption plan. On Donner Pass we enjoy countless curves and flange oilers (grease), this impacts the semi-rigid steam locomotive driver contact pattern swinging from tangent track shifting in and out of curves and back again far different from the modern diesel locomotive truck.

How did they do it in the days of steam you may ask - that was then this is now. On that particular route, I believe many readers here understand the unbearably hard operating challenges that lead to the development of one of my all time favorites - the Cab Forward. Those fantastic locomotives were assigned to conquer Donner handling tonnage that allowed them to make stops and starts as needed for water, train meets, cutting helpers in/out etc throughout that very long ascending grade. On the downgrade operation, the train would often stop, (or have Trainmen positioned atop the moving train as needed) to set up the “pops”, the retainers. The engineer would navigate that long descending route slowly grinding away the cast iron brake shows of that era - often stopping to allow the wheels to cool. I have experience with retainers on the 4% grade on the Georgetown Loop years ago now. I have enjoyed handling the #8-ET air brake on the 2% + on Cima, Cajon and I have been around the Spiral Tunnels to Field BC in Canada both directions. I have enjoyed many great experiences that I have been privileged to see in my 36 years of running trains, 20 years running and firing UP 844, 3985 and now the 4014. Back then, the steam locomotive was not on the verge of stalling going around every curve, blasting slowly pounding away the miles - that was not good practice then and certainly not today with 150 passengers aboard moving in and out of numerous tunnels along the route.

Tunnels - I respect what they represent and have good experience traveling through many; the Mount MacDonald, and Connaught on the CP, Hogan Tunnel, Chicoot, Peninsula tunnel in Portland with CCS failure stop midway, and before that the Cascades with the 3985. My home territory, the former D&RGW Moffat Tunnel Sub is the tunnel district where I enjoyed running the SD-40T-2’s on manned helpers before the days of DPU and I was there for the very first AC4400 on the SP. I was gassed slightly during a stall while running 4 brand new mid-train AC 4400’s on a westbound Taconite load, the diesel-exhaust heat was inescapable and could have been far more serious had we not been nearly through the 1700’ long tunnel 17 east of Crescent, another story some day - I have been at the throttle to witness the powerful stack output of expanding steam dislodge a rock the size of a watermelon right as I was reacting to reduce power, and we were lucky that it missed the safety valves and “only” dented the jacket while shattering the front window right above me. Imagine having the safety valve lift as you close the throttle recovering from a high speed slip or the unthinkable - knocking off a safety or ripping off the pig-tail with a giant rock or chunk of old concrete lining. Remember that pleasant sounding steam locomotive exhaust represents massive expanding steam power well beyond what the diesel fleet produces - make sure that the UP designed stack hood isn’t just for looks - always respect tunnels.

Lastly - How long do you think that 70-AcE can withstand the high temperature workload of that 2.2% grade with the added massive heat load from the lead locomotive? Those trailing locomotives can suffer cooling related failure modes in the engine consist back behind you. I need that cool sounding EMD 710 (thank you Hotwater) thundering away back there when I need it, and I can’t choke it out with too much heat, steam vapor (taking some new electronic gizmo off-line when you need it most) and smoke either. As Hotwater mentioned, it is a balance between the two technologies to make the operation seamless and incident free as we get those passengers to their destination at the end of the day.

Thank you for your interest in the UP 4014.

Ed - 307-214-3547.

Posted from iPhone



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/24 22:29 by EdDickens.

Ed

Thanks for the explanations. Also not having any real steam knowledge it was great to hear some of the details that you gave on your visit with Jay Leno. 

Maranatha brother,

Bob Payne
Glendora, CA

To all "Steam-board" readers on TrainOrders..

I have sent a PM to Ed Dickens, and apologized for having totally 
missed his post of Sept 1.   
Somehow it got right by me! 
I just had passed my 85th birthday ... not sure what I was doing..
Oh, well.

Ed's point of his essay was his experience with actual superheating 
with 4014.... and his real-life experience with 4014.   It brought to mind a
fact that I had omitted in considering whether it was reasonable to expect 
that a light train would produce enough draft to get to superheat temps.
I had forgotten one KEY factor in the equation :  Extended 'dwell-time' 
of steam in the superheater units.

Yes, the trailing cars is nowhere near what 4014 is designed for or the 
size trains he is capable of hauling.  But, with a clean, white-hot fire, and 
even a lackadaisical draft, you're going to be pulling fire into the flues 
holding the superheater pipes.  Two factors determine superheat temperatures:
(1) Flame-tip temperatures entering the superheater flues ---- containing the
      products of combustion ...
(2) The increased Dwell-time of the steam flow, in the units, to the throttle
      and the pistons.

The longer the Dwell-time that the steam spends travelling through the HOT 
superheater units, the hotter the steam becomes.

With a 'light train' and flat tracks, you don't have a heavy weight behind the tender,
but, you have sufficient draft to draw the hot flames abd gasses over the superheater 
pipes.  The distinction is that the throttle is closed down to great extent ---since you're 
NOT pulling a heavy load.  The math of the designers was drafting boiler that COULD 
pull a long train... In absence of a long train, a partially open throttle gives ample 
opportunity for low steam flow rates.... and greater time to be heated-up on its 
journey to the pistons.

Being well drafted to pull a coal-fire, he's really gonna' be very well drafted, with 
no draft-robbing coal-grates to hold back air flows.

So, Ed was correct, in his experience with small trains and very high superheater 
temperatures.  I had totally forgotten the importance of 'dwell-time' and its effects
on superheated steam temperatures.  Yes, the fire isn't as hot as 100 cars behind 
the coupler, but also, the load of the coaches is suffucent to pull fire into 
the superheater flues --- the partially opened, multiple-poppet front-end throttle,
held-back massive steam-flows, ergo:  very-hot steam because of the extended 
amount of time that the steam has in contact with very hot gasses & hot
superheater piping.

Also, remember that 4014 has a relatively large number of superheater units
in that immense boiler.... Big Boy may not be hauling big trains, but there are 
SO MANY superheater units and those very long dwell-times --- he can still
add a blue color to the steel piston rods.

Ed's experience was valid,  I had totally disregarded the effects of increased 
dwell-times,  and the added factors when you hold steam-flows to low rates ,
and still have sufficient oxygen-flows through the firebox to produce 3,000F
flame-tip temperatures ( hot  fire + "clear-stack" conditions)---- 700F steam
is easily produced ! 

Maybe 4014 ought to be nick-named 'Hot Boy"!

​W.
 



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/24 11:58 by wcamp1472.

I was on the 1996 J.D. Davis westbound special for the commeration of the new Roseville Yard.  The train was 23 cars long with an AC44 helper behing the #3985. The diesel got about a quarter mile inside the 2.2% Big Hole grade and died.. Conductor asked the Mountain DS to back out of the T-41, the dispatcher said no, and Steve Lee got everything he had with both engines an got to 11 mph as he exited at East Norden where they had a scheduled  inspection stop..  I climbed off the train and and whole bunch of folks crowded  around the Engineer and he said another 15 to 30 sections ainside the T-41 and their overalls would have caught fire. UP invited a lot of folks on that train.  Among them, Carl Voss, Dick Dorn, Ted Benson and Shirley and Dick.   Meteorologist Mike Pechner

These were great discussions and answers--thank you for posting them!  It helps some of us understand better what's going on "inside" these steam engines during such conditions.

I'm glad to see this subject and the long discussions finally laid to rest.  I don't remember what old TV commercial said it but the phrase was "Ask the man that owns one".
Having ridden the 4014 this month perched behind the fireman, Austin Barker, I paid particular attention to things that had been  rampant on TO from time to time.  "Can't make steam", "Doesn't fire worth a damn" etc.
So, for a Big Boy it was pulling a light train.  We were running south on the old Iron Mountain along the Mississippi River on level track.  I never once saw the BP below 297-298 PSI.  Good water level maintained and a very bright fire under a light throttle maintaining track speed of 40 MPH. Little to no blower use. Ed and Austin worked seamlessly  at communicating.  I also saw no use of the diesel.
The diesel air compressor was used which saved wear and tear on the 4014's pumps. We did the same thing on the EAS for BNSF. Using a diesel in tunnel territory is solid common sense as is using the dynamic brakes.
Back in 1991 (I think) I flew out to Salt Lake City and joined the steam crew bringing the train back from Sacramento.  844 and second engine 3985.  I was on 3985.   We had the cab closed up tightly when we went through Hermosa tunnel.  If there was a sample of hell, that would have worked.  A bonus is when we came out, the engines and us had a great layer of diesel soot and looked like a minstrel show.  So if you're going to have tunnels use a diesel to shove you through it.  Remember the video of 3751 after not doing that.
I remember the harsh criticism Ed Dickens had to endure early on, hell I even joined the chorus a few times back then.  I didn't know any better, I was a Steve Lee fan and we were friends.  After a while I started thinking that I was over a thousand miles from Cheyenne and didn't really know what was going on out there, so I stopped the smack talk and just watched.  Hell, I was and am insignificant in the steam "industry".
I'm very impressed with the results of the steam program's work. Some say the work on 4014 was overkill, but if you have the resources why not do it correctly and thoroughly?  I think the engine's performance has proven  that.  Ed and I talk from time to time and he describes some of the stuff they're doing.  I've witnessed the effect of the 4014 and the UP passenger consist plus the PR department giving advance notice and the huge crowds it draws.  Ed somehow finds time to talk with anyone and has put a good face on the railroad with the public.
Haters gonna hate and I realize that will never change.  I've learned late in my 83 years that letting someone live rent free in your head doesn't bother them but wears you down and in the end is more damaging to you than them.
To sum up, Ed is meticulous and wants every detail done right.  He has nothing to apologize for.  He inherited a good program and has made it better over his tenure. Continuous improvement. Let's hope its around for future generations to enjoy.

Ed,Very informative thread here, especially the effect of hot steam gasses on a trailing diesel in a long tunnel up or downhill, I was wondering about that, plus the long term effect it had on that WP heritage unit that was trailing for so many miles.

Also very interesting story about that water melon size rock that waited all those years to fall just as 4014 and you guys passed through!

Jim Baker
Riverside, CA

If you get down to basics, the locomotive wouldn't move without the superheater bundles. What!?! Well those 5 inch
tubes would draft the fire right out the smokebox. It is the back pressure that the bundles provide in the tubes that allows
the heat to perform it's duty and transfer into the saturated steam. There's a delicate balance between the frontal area
of the bundle and the diameter of the tube. So, if the clearance area is right then the locomotive should be able to 
superheat at lower drafts because enough heat is retained at the bundle because of the low velocity. I would never
have thought that would have been a design criteria for a locomotive that size which rarely ran at low draft but
obviously it was. I do have to give Ed credit, the locomotive currently steams much better than when it first ran.

Out 

callum_out Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you get down to basics, the locomotive wouldn't
> move without the superheater bundles. What!?! Well
> those 5 inch
> tubes would draft the fire right out the smokebox.
> It is the back pressure that the bundles provide
> in the tubes that allows
> the heat to perform it's duty and transfer into
> the saturated steam. There's a delicate balance
> between the frontal area
> of the bundle and the diameter of the tube. So, if
> the clearance area is right then the locomotive
> should be able to 
> superheat at lower drafts because enough heat is
> retained at the bundle because of the low
> velocity. I would never
> have thought that would have been a design
> criteria for a locomotive that size which rarely
> ran at low draft but
> obviously it was. I do have to give Ed credit, the
> locomotive currently steams much better than when
> it first ran.
>
> Out 

CallumOut - the locomotive performs the same as it did from day one in 2019.

Another side note, of all the days to onboard a less than optimum load of fuel, Roseville was it.

There was a technical problem in the transfer of fuel from one of the storage tanks, it appears one of the circulating pumps was not working completely, and that led to a portion of the load receiving some of the stratified sediment toward the bottom in the large tank. You may notice on that particular day, the engine was a bit smoky compared to how I usually prefer.

Ed

Posted from iPhone



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/24 11:18 by EdDickens.

Ed, I chased a bit South of Vegas and the locomotive didn't sound healthy so..........

Out 

callum_out Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ed, I chased a bit South of Vegas and the
> locomotive didn't sound healthy so..........
>
> Out 

It’s the same locomotive today as it was then, it now has 19K miles on the machinery.

Respectfully, perhaps you can provide additional analysis on what the 4000 class should sound like after being recently restored as it was from 2017-2019.

Ed

Posted from iPhone

C'mon Ed, that was the trip where it took 2 diesels to push you and a passengre train up Cajon Pass. And what
about your assortment of rod leaks? The lcoomotive is better today than it was then and if that's not your doing
please compliment the people responsible.

Out 

callum_out Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> C'mon Ed, that was the trip where it took 2
> diesels to push you and a passengre train up Cajon
> Pass. And what
> about your assortment of rod leaks? The lcoomotive
> is better today than it was then and if that's not
> your doing
> please compliment the people responsible.
>
> Out 

Without rehashing the obvious nonsensical bitterness that I have addressed in my earlier posts, you are welcome to believe that tired old narrative if you like Mr CallumOut. The Rod leaks are a minor detail that were easily resolved after those remarkable first 1000 miles following the comprehensive 2-1/2 year rebuild. I look forward to detailing that process soon here on TO.

If I may, Sign your name and I will take your words more seriously, let me know who you are and we can engage in some productive dialogue. How do I know who you are, your postings have a familiar sound to them. I am always happy to read your posts and I can take the act of being Called Out by you once again.

I welcome a call from you, it would be nice to chat and get to know each other, we can compare notes and share stories of our common interest of steam locomotives.

Ed 307-214-3547

Posted from iPhone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/24 16:55 by EdDickens.

callum_out Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> C'mon Ed, that was the trip where it took 2
> diesels to push you and a passengre train up Cajon
> Pass. And what
> about your assortment of rod leaks? The lcoomotive
> is better today than it was then and if that's not
> your doing
> please compliment the people responsible.
>
> Out 
This would be interesting to see on video.  First I've heard of it.

"Rod Leaks"?
Are you talking about the seals around piston rods?

For new seals, or even re-installed originals, there is a 
re-seating process where the two smooth surfaces polish 
each other, and form a tight seal.  During that process, there will
be 'blowing packing'   Crucial to the "seating-process" is high pressure
at the pistons, while moving.

So, the key is:  what does it take to get high cylinder pressures?
Answer : HEAVY TRAINS.  

It takes a heavy train to allow the engineer to use very wide throttle 
openings.  Heavy trains are the ONLY way to 'seat ' new rod-packing.
The combination of heavy weight behind the tender & high pressure at 
the pistons applies increased 'clamping pressure' on the sealing-elements
of the new, or re-seating, "rod-packing".   There are a complex pieces to long-wearing
rod packing.    But, you also need the corresponding piston rod movements to produce
the polishing effects.

"Rod Packing" is RR term for the complex sealing system for piston rods.

"Cylinder packing" refers to the complex components used to seal the pistons
at the cylinder walls.  The automotive analogy is 'piston rings'.

Somewhere, I remember reading that, early & after the rebuild, 4014 did get
asked to shove, and assist with a shove for a stalled train on the main line ....
Just what the steam-gods ordered!    

During that golden opportunity, the new sets of rod packing became happily
seated to each other.    Or, have I conflated the facts?

​W.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/24 17:31 by wcamp1472.

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Rod Leaks"?
> Are you talking about the seals around piston
> rods?
>
> For new seals, or even re-installed originals,
> there is a 
> re-seating process where the two smooth surfaces
> polish 
> each other, and form a tight seal.  During that
> process, there will
> be 'blowing packing'   Crucial to the
> "seating-process" is high pressure
> at the pistons, while moving.
>
> So, the key is:  what does it take to get high
> cylinder pressures?
> Answer : HEAVY TRAINS.  
>
> It takes a heavy train to allow the engineer to
> use very wide throttle 
> openings.  Heavy trains are the ONLY way to 'seat
> ' new rod-packing.
> The combination of heavy weight behind the tender
> & high pressure. at 
> the pistons apppies increased 'clamping pressure'
> on the sealing 
> elements of the new, or re-seating, "rod-packing".
>   But, you need the 
> corresponding piston rod movements to produce the
> polishing effects.
>
> "Rod Packing" is RR term for the complex sealing
> system for piston rods.
>
> "Cylinder packing" refers to the complex
> components used to seal the pistons
> at the cylinder walls.  The automotive analogy is
> 'piston rings'.
>
> Somewhere, I remember reading that, early & after
> the rebuild, 4014 did get
> asked to shove, and assist with a shove a stalled
> train on the main line ....
> Just what the steam-gods ordered!    During that
> golden opportunity, the new
> sets of rod packing became happily seated to each
> other.  
> Or, have I conflated the facts?
>
> ​W.

Good evening Wes,

I am working to provide some information regarding the PM piston rod packing to help build understanding based on discussion from a few weeks back. Good days here in the field.

Enjoy the evening.

Thank you for your detailed analysis Wes.

Ed.

Posted from iPhone

I'm used-to King Metallic Packing---  Had very good luck with it.
U.S.Metallic Packing Co., Staten Islany, NY.

​W.

wcamp1472 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm used-to King Metallic Packing---  Had very
> good luck with it.
> U.S.Metallic Packing Co., Staten Islany, NY.
>
> ​W.

Wes,

The UP standard was Paxton - Mitchel.

P/M probably had a better sales rep, on U.P.?
(Kick-backs and pretty women were common sales 
influence persuaders .. for many loco appliance manufacturures). 

​W.

I think what "Calumout" was referring to, i.e. "rod leaks" was the initial doubleheader trip to Utah back in 2019. The cause was, reportedly, incorrect piston rod re-surfacing account not allowing for the full stroke of the piston. The end result was that portion of the piston rod that was NOT re-surfaced, quickly destroyed the rod packing. That issue was resolved after 4014 returned to Cheyenne, and the four piston rods re-surfaced properly.