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Date: 10/24/24 17:14
Stopping for water
Author: hperritt

In the timetable/train-order days, before radios, what was the procedure if a through train, with timetable superiority, needed to stop for water enroute at a water tower. No authority to do so from timetable. Did it need a train order to stop and take on water, or could it do so at its discretion, flagging as prescribed by the flagging rules?
 



Date: 10/24/24 17:16
Re: Stopping for water
Author: HotWater

hperritt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In the timetable/train-order days, before radios,
> what was the procedure if a through train, with
> timetable superiority, needed to stop for water
> enroute at a water tower. No authority to do so
> from timetable. Did it need a train order to stop
> and take on water, or could it do so at its
> discretion, flagging as prescribed by the flagging
> rules?


Freight train or scheduled passenger train?



Date: 10/24/24 19:54
Re: Stopping for water
Author: Elesco

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hperritt Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > In the timetable/train-order days, before
> radios,
> > what was the procedure if a through train, with
> > timetable superiority, needed to stop for water
> > enroute at a water tower. No authority to do so
> > from timetable. Did it need a train order to
> stop
> > and take on water, or could it do so at its
> > discretion, flagging as prescribed by the
> flagging
> > rules?
>
>
> Freight train or scheduled passenger train?

It would be interesting to hear the answers for both.



Date: 10/25/24 06:50
Re: Stopping for water
Author: LarryDoyle

What kind of signaling do you have?

Does the timetable show a time which would protect your stop?

-LD



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/24 07:12 by LarryDoyle.



Date: 10/25/24 07:03
Re: Stopping for water
Author: wcamp1472

As a kid in Lomg Branch, NJ, there were track pans on a straight section of track, 
ending just before the main crossing, Broadway.  The pans extended northward, towards 
Red Bank,  and the beginning of the pans ( for southbound trains) was just short 
of Washington St crossing ( IIRC).

There was also a stand pipe at the north-end of the passenger loading platforms,
at Long Branch Passenger station.  With a train that was unloading and loading 
passengers, the tender could be spotted at a position to take water from the stand-pipes,
so they could take water, with nary any delay in timetable ops--- passenger loading
+ occasional newspaper drops for the Station's News Stand....  

A couple of early morning South-Bounds, would carry early-edition NY papers,
for the morning commuters --- waiting for the NY-bound trains & commuter rush.

Morinings were closely spaced trains --- CNJ to Jersey City/ Commuimpaw Terminal,
on the Jersey shore of the Hudson, and a ferry ride to lower Manhattan & Wall Street.

PRR trains continued to a junction ( Union?) with the PRR, high-speed NY-Philly,
4-track Main--- then Elizabeth, Newark & NY Cuty ( with some sections 6-tracks, wide).
If PRR commuters were also working at Wall St, they'd have to take NY City Subways,
to lower Manhattan.

At that time, there were also PRR commuter trains to PRR's Terminal original station
fort for NY City passengers at Exchange Place...using PRR ferries to Lower Manhattan,
and Wall Street..  With the completion of Penn Station, about 1910,
 electric 'Motors' hauled trains into the new Penn Station, in Mid-town, NY

Also, PRR used Commuter cars, with traction motors, for many commuter trains,
not requiring 'Motors'.  ( They were called 'motors' to distinguish them from 
'engines' ----- 'Engines' was a superior term used for the Majestic Steam Locomotives
that inspired awe and inspiration )....At the early 2Oth century, PRR used a lot of labor
 to keep their engines washed and shiny...

I used to peddle my bike to the starting K4 locos, but I'd have to avoid that stand-pipe.
The paved walkway extended northward to the next street crossing ..... about 1/4 Mile...
So, by about 6 driver revolutions .... the K4 + train could beat me, all the time -
-- I couldn't keep-up !   But,  enjoyed 'pacing' the drivers, just feet away -
as I was "stand-pedaling" using the sidewalk!  I'd put a smile on many an enginer's 
face!

Occasionally, during the passenger stops, I'd see the fireman taking water from
the stand-pipe.   I never saw a southbound train scooping water from the track pans.

W.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/24 07:19 by wcamp1472.



Date: 10/25/24 07:47
Re: Stopping for water
Author: tomstp

Never heard of any planned stopping for water around here.  Crew kept their eyes on water level and knew where every water facility  was located. Passenger trains water usuage was not like freight engines.  They pretty much stopped at same tanks if not delayed.
 



Date: 10/25/24 08:38
Re: Stopping for water
Author: engineerinvirginia

Fair to to say, water and coal were available in specific places, and knowledge of how the average train fared in fuel economy, you would be expected to stop if needed at any location where the needed fuel component was available. This is partly why subdivisons are the length they are...the distance was about as far as a train could go on the hours of service what with stopping to do coal and water, station stops....meets, switching by freights and locals, and so one. It's possible you would be expected to get on the lineside phone and tell the DS your delay time for fueling....flag your train if required by rules....



Date: 10/25/24 09:21
Re: Stopping for water
Author: timz

> ,,, needed to stop for water enroute at a water
> tower. No authority to do so from timetable.
> Did it need a train order to stop and take
> on water ...

If the engine breaks down, do you need to get
an order allowing you to stop? If you see
a smoking journal, are you allowed to stop
between stations? If you hit an auto at
a crossing, do you need an order to stop
the train?
 



Date: 10/25/24 09:46
Re: Stopping for water
Author: wcamp1472

Each of those above events requires stoppng, taking the safe course,
& reporting the incident..

Compliance with procedures, orders, etc... is up to the dispatcher....regarding other trains..
You drop the problem in his lap!   Since you're the senior RR rep at the scene,
you must deal with and support law enforcement and emergency responders.

Others are ones that need to notified and handled properly, by the dispatchers
with orders, as needed... that's where the dispatcher's responsibility is ---- 
to ensure the rest of the others on the RR know about the incident..  
And, he knows about all the other 'moves' that are affected & need to be warned...

W.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/24 13:04 by wcamp1472.



Date: 10/25/24 09:57
Re: Stopping for water
Author: TractiveEffort

timz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> If the engine breaks down, do you need to get
> an order allowing you to stop? If you see
> a smoking journal, are you allowed to stop
> between stations? If you hit an auto at
> a crossing, do you need an order to stop
> the train?
>  

Rule 99 for flagging protection was always the method for handling unscheduled stops in non-signaled timetable/train-order territory.  Of course, history is repleat with mishaps which resulted from failure to comply with this rule by the crew of the stopped or the following train.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/24 09:58 by TractiveEffort.



Date: 10/25/24 13:37
Re: Stopping for water
Author: wcamp1472

As a younger railfan, John Rehor told of a cab ride on a NKP Berk
from Frankfort, Indiana to Bellevue, Ohio .....
Its single track,  'dark' territory ... ( no signals, for traffic control) 

While barreling along at near 70 mph, with a freight train, there was
an ealier freight, and Berk, also barreling along, somewhere ahead of them ...

A scared Rehor asked ( shouted) to the engineer:
" What happens if that train ahead of us 'gets an air hose' ? ".  [ ruptured] 
The engineer replied:
" I guess, we'll have to get one, too !! "

The NKP was an early adopter of two-way, radio communications mounted
on all their engines, cabooses, and dispatchers' offices -- in the mid-1950's .

It was before the adoption of transistor radios, so the vacuum tube, radio chassis and housing
was a large, tube radio chassis, mounted up on the tender, behind the
sloped coal sheet.   There was a boiler-mounted, steam turbo-generator,
connected to an A/C alternator... that was the A/C electric power supply for the radio....
the mike and speaker were mounted near the engineer...

In1968, while  Ross Rowland and HICO were restoring the NKP 759, at Conneaut's
Roundhouse.----  Way over in the corner, was a dusty, steel mounting bracket and steam turbo,
lying on the floor --- missing the alternator.  The attached, steel shop-tag was stamped  "759"  

To this day, I kick myself for not having rescued 759's radio-turbine and its platform.  
The Berk's A/C generators were mounted high-up on the boiler, ahead of the cab,
on the engineer's side.   You can see it in photos, if you know where to look!

The NKP was an early adopter of radio communications on steam locos!
So, that's why two fast, screaming Berks and freight trains could thunder
down the tracks at 70-per, one in front of the other,  on "dark territory,"
and do it safely ! 

W. 

(
759's boiler stil carries 4 studs,... that once mounted it's bracket carrying the A/C generator..)....



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/24 14:11 by wcamp1472.



Date: 10/29/24 14:03
Re: Stopping for water
Author: hperritt

Why would it matter? Either one is going to have authority, either from the timetable, or from a train order. Either one could experience the need to stop for water, not explicitly anticipated and provided for in the timetable or train order authorizing the movement.

The consensus seems to be that no explicit authority to stop for water is needed--that flagging rules protect the train if it gets too far out of scheduled time.

I appreciate the information about radio communication and trackside telephones, but the question was meant to assume timetable and telegraphed train order operations. 

Block signals, would make a difference of course, reducing entire reliance on flagging.

Thanks for the answers.



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