Nostalgia & History > California Zephyr ... Holiday/Expanded Consists?

Hi all

I'm curious if anyone has notes/recollections of how the consist of the Silver Lady would be adjusted to handle seasonal passenger loads?

Would extra dome-coaches be cut in ahead of the dome-obs? Was a second diner or second dome-dorm-lounge added? Were sleepers ever carried in multiple blocks?

Or, instead of expanding a consist, was a second section operated?

I've bought "a few" of BLI's cars (24 so far, with 17 more on the shopping list) ... I'm seeking historical precedent for longer than normal consists.

Thanks,

* JB *

There was a finite limit to the expansion of the CZ, and it rarely, if ever, ran with a 2nd section from end point to end point.

The length was dictated by the various railroads and then by the length of the various stations. The extra cars were very rarely CZ cars. The reason for this is obvious - there just weren't that many "extra" CZ cars.

Until 1952, when the consortium changed the contract to specifically allow non-consortium CZ cars, the only time that one would be on was in an emergency. After that time, you would see them in consist. Sleepers would be ahead of the dome-obs, coaches immediately behind the baggage car (these are generalities). The reason is primarily to limit the impact on the audio system.

Note that there was an attempt to keep the look of the train by keeping to stainless cars. The CB&Q non-CZ cars were the cars of first choice. After that, the large pool of C&O cars were most often used, simply because they were most often available. In fact, they were the first non-consortium cars on the CZ in 1952, when they were leased for the summer season.

Other cars used included the D&RGW P-S cars that came from the huge C&O order (but were built to D&RGW specifications as were the B&O, NYC,IC and NKP cars that were also built as part of that order and also often found on the train). Also found were SP cars, the GS cars, aluminum with the red letterboard fit in nicely. UP, C&NW, MILW also were used. ACL cars were used quite a bit, in fact, several famous photos and paintings show an ACL 11 DB car in consist. Often times you have to look real hard, mostly at the truck line (the CZ cars were skirted, most others not) and the roof line to see if it was a Budd CZ car.

Very rarely will you find photos of more than 3 dome coaches - 3 dome CZ coaches. You will find photos of the CZ on D&RGW tracks with one of the ex C&O Budd domes. These often were cut in and taken from Denver to Glenwood Springs for ski groups. They show up once in a while elsewhere as well. There are times you'll find 5 CZ domes up front, but not often.

It would be highly unusual to see more than 13 CZ cars in one consist. It did happen - there was at least one 26 car CZ (when two were combined). But it was a rarity. Far more often, to see a shorter train of 8 to 9 cars with 3-4 domes in front.

Most of the time when you see a CZ listed as "2nd section of a CZ" it is on the Chicago-Denver leg. That is because the CZ took off before the DZ, and the Q really wanted to run another section of the DZ - but wanted it to run before the DZ (these are usually skit groups, conventions, tour groups, etc.). So, because you really can't run a 2nd section before a 1st, they ran a 2nd section of the CZ. It wasn't in reality a CZ - but for timekeeping, it made more sense.

Second diners and second dome lounges were rarely if ever used. Except for the time when they combined two trains. Far better for you to have a #17 & a #18. Or a CZ and a AZ/KCZ/AZ-NZ.

rswebber Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for the verbose reply. It answered several questions (and spawne a few more). Read on for my comments on your post:


> There was a finite limit to the expansion of the CZ, and it rarely, if ever, ran with a 2nd section from end point to end point.

I think I need to re-read MacGregor/Benson's "Portrait of a Silver Lady" again. I recall that families and business travelers were among CZ's passenger base, but I forget the split. A SWAG opinion would be that business travelers declined as a percentage of travelers as years advanced toward 1970.


> The reason for this is obvious - there just weren't that many "extra" CZ cars.

In updating the spreadsheet I used to mind my CZ roster, I learned that 77 cars were ordered. From the book I learned that six trainsets were ordered. In pondering your comment, I created this table:

Avail Train Res Type
6 1 0 Baggage
18 3 0 Dome Coach
6 1 0 Dome Dorm Buffet Lounge
6 1 0 Diner
7 1 1 Sleeper 16 Section
6 1 0 Sleeper 6 - 5
21 3 3 Sleeper 10 - 6
7 1 1 Dome Lounge Buffet Observation

77 12 5 Total

As you've stated, there wasn't much spare equipment. Note: Res = Reserve


> After [1952], you would see [foreign cars] in consist.

Ok.


> Sleepers would be ahead of the dome-obs,

Was there a pecking order to the sleepers? I'm aware the 16 section sleepers were later converted to coaches. Some of the pictures in the book show an 11 car train without a 6-5 sleeper. Were those delivered later?


> After that, the large pool of C&O cars were most often used, simply because they were most often available.

Were these C&O cars for the stillborn Chessie streamliner?


> In fact, they were the first
> non-consortium cars on the CZ in 1952, when they
> were leased for the summer season.

Ok.

> Often times you have to look real hard, mostly at the truck line (the
> CZ cars were skirted, most others not) and the roof line to see if it was a Budd CZ car.

Wow ... In going through the book, I found three photos so far that show foreign cars in the train. Either behind the baggage car or ahead of the obs. One even shows an ACL sleeper.


> Very rarely will you find photos of more than 3
> dome coaches - 3 dome CZ coaches. You will find
> photos of the CZ on D&RGW tracks with one of the
> ex C&O Budd domes.

A few photos show a dome car cut in after the baggage car and ahead of flat-top fluted cars. One such photo is captioned as the west bound demo trip. The other photo is of an eastbound run, though no date or pertinent details are given in the caption.


> These often were cut in and taken from Denver to Glenwood Springs for ski groups.

They'd cut the train enroute?


> They show up once in a while elsewhere as
> well. There are times you'll find 5 CZ domes up
> front, but not often.

I've yet to see a photo in the book with more than four ... there might be one. I haven't gone through the whole book on this go-round.


> It did happen - there was at least one 26 car CZ (when two were combined).

What was the backstory on this move? Was a train turned back due to failure or weather, then the consists doubled to position equipment?


> Far more often, to see a shorter train of 8 to 9 cars with 3-4 domes in front.

Right. Subtract sleepers and add an ex-C&O combine and you'll have the RGZ.


> It wasn't in reality a CZ - but for timekeeping, it made more sense.

Interesting ...


> Far better for you to have a #17 & a #18.

That's Plan C. :-) (An RGZ then one CZ were plans A & B). One thing I'm still working on: how to create the Dome Car Monument in HO gauge. lol :-)

* JB *

prr4828 Wrote:
> As you've stated, there wasn't much spare
> equipment. Note: Res = Reserve

The 10-6's that appear to be reserves, really aren't - they are shuttling back and forth to the east coast as trans-con sleepers. so knock 2.5-3 off of that reserve figure. Note that these are the original figures. A new order was placed in 1952 (for the 6-5 car - 6 cars in all) and 2 more 10-6's, 1 more 16 section, and another dome obs. BUT, these were also in an order with cars for the ARZ and Blackhawk - the whole order allowed the Q to use cars from the CZ on the AK-SAR-BEN Zephyr overnight and back - usually before the next CZ left. More utilization, but with a few spares.


> Was there a pecking order to the sleepers? I'm
> aware the 16 section sleepers were later converted
> to coaches. Some of the pictures in the book show
> an 11 car train without a 6-5 sleeper. Were those
> delivered later?

The 6-5's were delivered in 1952 as above. Not sure what you mean though by "pecking order". The 16 sections weren't that popular.

>
> Were these C&O cars for the stillborn Chessie
> streamliner?
No - the Chessie cars were Budd cars - and the Chessie was an all coach train. The C&O Pullmans were part of the huge P-S C&O order that came just after that order. The C&O ordered over 270 cars, and ended up with 56 10-6 sleepers, some of which were later sold to ACL.
>
> Wow ... In going through the book, I found three
> photos so far that show foreign cars in the train.
> Either behind the baggage car or ahead of the obs.
> One even shows an ACL sleeper.

There are a lot more of them than people think. Look at:
http://calzephyr.railfan.net/ads/adplnvw.jpg
a famous ad and find the NYC sleeper.

>
> > Very rarely will you find photos of more than 3
> > dome coaches - 3 dome CZ coaches. You will

>
> A few photos show a dome car cut in after the
> baggage car and ahead of flat-top fluted cars. One
> such photo is captioned as the west bound demo
> trip. The other photo is of an eastbound run,
> though no date or pertinent details are given in
> the caption.
The demo trips had more domes than usual because they also were moving the domes to towns along the route to show off the train - and to stage the train.

>
> They'd cut the train enroute?
Yes, happened a lot more than people think. After the Coloradoan was discontinued on the Q, from 1 to 5 baggage cars were added WB in Nebraska and removed in Denver. Also cars were Chicago-Denver only, and Denver SLC only. It wasn't typical, but it wasn't rare either.

> What was the backstory on this move? Was a train
> turned back due to failure or weather, then the
> consists doubled to position equipment?

There was a train that was stopped due to weather, and routing - at least twice the CZ was routed via Barstow from SLC to Oakland. Once was when the CofSF was stranded in the Sierras (the CZ was right behind it, the Feather River Canyon had over 16 feet of snow, and the CZ *might* have been able to couple onto the CofSF and push it out, but wiser heads decided one stranded passenger train was enough) - that lasted a week.
>
Right. Subtract sleepers and add an ex-C&O combine
> and you'll have the RGZ.
Sort of. You also have to remove the train name board, and do some other modifications. It is not an easy change by any means, unfortunately. BTW, those combines also saw an awful lot of CZ service.


> That's Plan C. :-) (An RGZ then one CZ were plans
> A & B). One thing I'm still working on: how to
> create the Dome Car Monument in HO gauge. lol :-)
>
> * JB *

An RGZ is not doable with the BLI cars as is. However, a California Service (between the CZ and the RGZ is. A VERY early RGZ might be, as photos exist of the RGZ with train name boards, but VERY early. Far easier to make a AK-SAR-BEN Zephyr, all of the cars are readily available, and you can throw in a jeep, and some of Walthers other cars in the mix.

I watched a video (Through the Guide, by Revelation audio-visual) last night which showed a 16 car CZ, with 2 extra flat top coaches, and 2 extra Pullmans, all matched cars. AA

Stanford White
Carmel Valley, CA

It's always possible. Note though that if there were two flat top coaches that were CZ flat top coaches, then it was a special movement, as there was typically one used. Two CZ flat tops seen together was a rarity due to the numbers of available cars. There were only 7 of them. Typically, in the summer season, that meant one per train with one as a spare for replacement. Having 16 cars also taxed the heating on most of the roads' equipment. So it was highly unusual during winter or late fall/early spring. If more than 13 were used (or it was bitterly cold) an ex GN heater car on the WP/a heater car (ex L-105 tender or ex-PB) on the D&RGW) or additional E-Units on the Q would be required. If it were hot, the steam would still be needed to actuate the A/C, but not nearly as much as for cold (and it would leak as badly).

The other thing is, be careful when it looks like it all matches. Typically, there is one or more foreign cars on any train over 13 cars. These are typically found by the wheel cut outs vs the skirted trucks; the two worded letter board vs the single worded (CZ vs Burlington - that one was very hard to see and since a lot of the cars look very close to CZ cars can go unnoticed); and/or roofs Budd vs flat (P-S/ACF).

If all 16 cars are CZ it is VERY rare - there simply weren't that many cars. One of the trains that long that had that many cars was the last one WB - when they were positioning the consortium's railroad's cars so that all the separate railroad's cars would be in the right place at end of day/end of ops. THAT train had more cars, more CZ cars.

agentatascadero Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I watched a video (Through the Guide, by
> Revelation audio-visual) last night which showed a
> 16 car CZ, with 2 extra flat top coaches, and 2
> extra Pullmans, all matched cars. AA

BTW, the latest issue of The Prospector, soon to be on Hobby shop Shelves now has an article on foreign cars on the CZ with photos.
Also found:
http://www.drgw.org/store/prosp-v5.htm

Robert, Remember, this is documented on film, it appears to be about 1960, at a meet with the Nebraska Zephyr(still with an obs), weather looks chilly, but no snow, Thanksgiving perhaps? Now to the consist: baggage, flat, dome, flat, 3 domes, diner, 5CZ then 2 off road Pullman built Pullmans, and the CZ obs. So not a matched CZ set, and I would guess the off line cars to be NYC, IF they were the regular transcontinental cars, which alternated between NYC and PRR east of Chicago. And I thank you for causing me to recheck my source, as correctly surmised, I had incorrectly reported what I viewed, missing the lack of skirting on the off road cars as I did. The same video shows an 8 car CZ on the WP. AA

Stanford White
Carmel Valley, CA

Sorry, I didn't know the date.

That specific date with that order is strange for a number of reasons.

The flat top coaches weren't created until 1964. So baggage - flat top - dome - flat top - 3 domes makes it strange from that point of view. If we advance the date to past 1964, my bet is it is a Chicago-Denver tour group not a full Chicago-Oakland routing. (Or Denver/Chicago if EB). It could be the first two cars are dead heads too. In any case, that is a highly unusual consist. It could also be that that first dome isn't a coach. It is where a dorm was handled when the CZ dome-dorms were sidelined and a KZ dome-lounge was used. Still a strange place for it, and if it could be used as a dorm, it would be in the usual place - unless a DH move. It COULD be going to Burlington to - they often moved cars from Chicago to Burlington and Denver to Burlington for maintenance in that position. No telling without the exact date and a written consist and explanation. The consist *might* be available at the Newberry, but that is a VERY big might.

As for the sleepers, the trans-con sleepers ended in 1958. The NYC cars still showed up because NYC, like most NE roads were limiting their service and had extra cars - NYC in fact had LW cars in the re-constituted Pullman Pool.

Spotting foreign cars in the CZ is not easy, and a lot of people take it for granted that what they see is a "pure consist" because that is what they expect. Don't feel like the lone stranger there, we all do it. I only started reviewing consists after I received a number of written consists and noted the number of foreign cars and thought to myself "I've never seen that many non-CZ cars in the train". Then I started really looking at the photos. They're there. You have to be critical and not expect to see something. Too many people were "brought up" with the idea that most CZ's were pure. Most of my written consists show the opposite to be the case. And when you look at the number of cars available and the wear and tear on cars (even on Budds) it makes a lot more sense.

rswebber Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> prr4828 Wrote:
> > As you've stated, there wasn't much spare
> > equipment. Note: Res = Reserve
>
> A new order was placed in 1952 (for the 6-5 car - 6 cars in all) and 2 more
> 10-6's, 1 more 16 section, and another dome obs.

The book says an order was placed on 2/15/1951 for 22 new cars, 10 of which would enter CZ service directly. The 6-5 sleeper is mentioned as a new type, and that it will carry line number CZ-16.

Ahh ... comparing your comment with the book reference, it makes sense now. Which dome obs was in this order?


> AK-SAR-BEN Zephyr

What was this train again?


> The 6-5's were delivered in 1952 as above. Not
> sure what you mean though by "pecking order". The
> 16 sections weren't that popular.

I was asking if the block of sleepers was always arranged the same way. I suspect the dome cars required turning, did the sleepers? Or was the whole train just wyed?

Didn't section sleepers fall out of favor in general about this time?


> The C&O ordered over 270 cars,
> and ended up with 56 10-6 sleepers, some of which
> were later sold to ACL.

No wonder Amtrak had so many 10&6's ... lol


> There are a lot more of them than people think.
> Look at:
> http://calzephyr.railfan.net/ads/adplnvw.jpg
> a famous ad and find the NYC sleeper.

It looks like a National Geographic ad. Be fun to take a magnifying glass to an original.



> There was a train that was stopped due to weather,
> and routing - at least twice the CZ was routed via
> Barstow from SLC to Oakland.

There's a picture of the CZ crossing Donner Pass. Now that I think of it, I think there's a photo or two of the CZ on the SP. I'd like to say that folks were held out of the domes while running on SP on account of close clearances, maybe in the snow sheds.


> Once was when the
> CofSF was stranded in the Sierras (the CZ was
> right behind it,

Yeah, right. I think I saw this mentioned in a big SP book I have. I'll have to re-read the chapter on the the Snowbound Streamliner.


> but wiser heads decided one stranded passenger train
> was enough) - that lasted a week.

The passengers were there, what, 3 days? And a rail died when an avalanche toppled his rotary.



> Sort of. You also have to remove the train name
> board, and do some other modifications.

I know about the train name board. What are the other mods?


> BTW, those combines also saw an awful lot of CZ service.

Really? I don't recall seeing those in the photos. When did the D&RGW get the combines?

* JB *

Sorry, was on vacation the last week...
prr4828 Wrote:
>Which dome obs was in this order?
SILVER LOOKOUT (CB&Q)
>
> > AK-SAR-BEN Zephyr
> > What was this train again?
AK-SAR-BEN Zephyr (Nebraska spelled backwards)

> I was asking if the block of sleepers was always
> arranged the same way. I suspect the dome cars
> required turning, did the sleepers? Or was the
> whole train just wyed?

Typically the whole train was wyed in Oakland, but in Chicago it was split apart, and parts were used on the AK-SAR-BEN Zephyr as indicated (and, possibly on others as needed - as long as the next day's CZ needs were covered). This depends on era too, as the trans-cons would be shunted over to the PRR (same terminal, same side) or the NYC (across town). Typically, the sleeper types were in the same position - the line number indicated above for the 6-5s also indicate a position within the train.

> Didn't section sleepers fall out of favor in
> general about this time?

The section sleepers were never very popular - they were typically the last cars filled. They really fell out of favor by 1957 and were typically placed in the Pullman pool.

> > The C&O ordered over 270 cars,
> > and ended up with 56 10-6 sleepers, some of
> which
> > were later sold to ACL.
>
> No wonder Amtrak had so many 10&6's ... lol
The 10-6 was the most popular car type - Southern had over 50, the Florida consortiums had a lot of them, NYC over 100, PRR over 50, etc. There were a LOT of 10-6's. The C&O 10-6's while numerous didn't all last that long, falling victim to the P-S corrugated car disease (rot under the decoration panels).

>
> There's a picture of the CZ crossing Donner Pass.
> Now that I think of it, I think there's a photo or
> two of the CZ on the SP. I'd like to say that
> folks were held out of the domes while running on
> SP on account of close clearances, maybe in the
> snow sheds.

SP laid claim to the clearances being an issue, but that was SP being SP more than anything else. It was demonstrated many times that regular Budd pattern domes had no problems in the snow sheds or tunnels.
>
> > BTW, those combines also saw an awful lot of CZ
> service.
>
> Really? I don't recall seeing those in the photos.
> When did the D&RGW get the combines?
>
The D&RGW got the combines at the same time as the rest of the AMC C&O ordered cars - 1952 (RPO-baggage, baggage, combines, coaches, 10-6 (changed to 5-6-5), diners, diner-lounge). The photos are "out there" you just have to find them. The D&RGW Budd domes (from the Chessie order), the D&RGW P-S baggage, combines, coaches, 5-6-5s and even the diner-lounges showed up on the CZ. The combines had some dorm facilities as well as a baggage and coach area, not enough for the CZ though. But these cars were first class cars - at least the equal to the CZ cars in terms of the interior appointments. And, being an on-line consortium partner, these cars, along with the Burlington non-CZ cars were natural add-INS when needed - or when tour groups were added between Denver and points west. Typically for anything Denver East, the Q found something to handle any contingency.

Note that during the Korean war and even during the Vietnam war, the CZ was used as a troop train and extra cars for troops were added to the train - but these were not CZ cars, rather cars from either the Q or other available pools. A lot depended on the origin of the movement. Another large movement was during the early 60's airline strike when just about anything with wheels was filled. Conventions (political, scouts, business, hobby, tour-related, sports), tours, weather related groups and other such events swelled consists around the west. Whole second consists of 20 and more cars of the DZ for ski groups left Chicago every weekend in the early '60's. Same with Spring in the Rockies tours in May. The Burlington had a very aggressive and successful passenger group that found business everywhere.

It should not be forgotten that the CZ was one of the very few trains that went from first to last with the baggage, dome coach, dome lounge, sleepers, and dome obs intact. Not many trains kept the round obs all the way through the life of the train. And damned few kept the basic consist intact from beginning to end.
> * JB *