Nostalgia & History > Question on CZ Dome-Observations

Was looking at the pictures on the passenger board of the CZ cars headed down to LA on yesterday's #11, and noticed that it looks like the roof on the observation car is higher behind the dome that it is in front. Is this the case with these cars? And if so, why?

Yes, it is, and the ex-CPR dome-obs on VIA are the same. I think it's just to give the tail end lounge a more "open" feeling by raising the ceiling.

Yes it is. The ceiling in the observation lounge is roughly the same hight as the rest of the car. However, the roof is higher as the air handler that air conditions the dome is located over the observation lounge. 5 points and bragging rights to the 1st person who correctly figures out how the air conditioning duct into the dome was hidden (grin).

It might be fun to see how this goes so I'm not gonna say.

Here's a hint-

It wasn't really hidden but it sure is hard to see! :-)

Cheers,

-john

CZ10 Wrote:
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> Yes it is. The ceiling in the observation lounge
> is roughly the same hight as the rest of the car.
> However, the roof is higher as the air handler
> that air conditions the dome is located over the
> observation lounge. 5 points and bragging rights
> to the 1st person who correctly figures out how
> the air conditioning duct into the dome was hidden
> (grin).

I can't compete for the 5 points, but I can cast some doubt on that story by pointing out the no non-observation dome that I know of ever needed to be built with a higher roof on one side of the dome for that purpose. Besides, I recently rode in the Silver Solarium and it was noticable to me that the ceiling is higher in the round end behind the dome.

The Burlington dome-observations built for the Denver Zephyr also had a higher roof line behind the dome. That car had it's dome offset forward, so there was plenty of room for a flattened out "air handler", if needed. I think the higher roof line and ceiling behind the dome of those cars what were meant to always be at the rear of the train was an asthetic choice on the part of the CB&Q, not a mechanical necessity.

As for the air ducts, they probably followed the same routing as those in the dome coaches and dome-cafe-dormitory: through the pillars between the windows, probably at the center front and/or rear.

However, if I'm wrong, I'd love to see the Budd diagrams that verify CZ10's claim. Always willing to learn.

Of course it's for asthetic reasons. If the ceiling in the lounge were lower, the air handler would fit within a lowered roof. The "main" air handler located at the front of the car (over the passageway between the public restroom and porter's station) is in an area where the ceiling is less than 7 feet. Another interesting point, is that the lounge ceiling contained not only the dome's air conditioner, but also a filtration unit to help remove cigarette smoke from the lounge. At some point in its lifetime, the filtration unit was removed from the Silver Crescent (ex WP 881).

Incidentally, the Gold Coast Railroad Museum down in Miami has as part of it's collection not only the Silver Crescent, but a complete set of the original Budd Company blueprints for the car.

As far as the AC duct into the dome, I can tell you that it while it's the same arrangement used for all of the CZ domes, it is NOT located in the pillars! Another hint is that the air comes up from the rear of the dome (makes sense, since the air handler is over the lounge).

DutchDoor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CZ10 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yes it is. The ceiling in the observation
> lounge
> > is roughly the same hight as the rest of the
> car.
> > However, the roof is higher as the air handler
> > that air conditions the dome is located over
> the
> > observation lounge. 5 points and bragging
> rights
> > to the 1st person who correctly figures out how
> > the air conditioning duct into the dome was
> hidden
> > (grin).
>
> I can't compete for the 5 points, but I can cast
> some doubt on that story by pointing out the no
> non-observation dome that I know of ever needed to
> be built with a higher roof on one side of the
> dome for that purpose. Besides, I recently rode
> in the Silver Solarium and it was noticable to me
> that the ceiling is higher in the round end behind
> the dome.
>
> The Burlington dome-observations built for the
> Denver Zephyr also had a higher roof line behind
> the dome. That car had it's dome offset forward,
> so there was plenty of room for a flattened out
> "air handler", if needed. I think the higher roof
> line and ceiling behind the dome of those cars
> what were meant to always be at the rear of the
> train was an asthetic choice on the part of the
> CB&Q, not a mechanical necessity.
>
> As for the air ducts, they probably followed the
> same routing as those in the dome coaches and
> dome-cafe-dormitory: through the pillars between
> the windows, probably at the center front and/or
> rear.
>
> However, if I'm wrong, I'd love to see the Budd
> diagrams that verify CZ10's claim. Always willing
> to learn.

CZ10 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As far as the AC duct into the dome, I can tell
> you that it while it's the same arrangement used
> for all of the CZ domes, it is NOT located in the
> pillars! Another hint is that the air comes up
> from the rear of the dome (makes sense, since the
> air handler is over the lounge).
>
Could the air have been pumped through the space between in inner and outer window pains of the center window? The inner windows were hinged at the bottom and could be opened inward. I always thought that was for cleaning purposes.

<Could the air have been pumped through the space between in inner and outer window pains of the center window?>

That was always my assumption, and the inner window was hinged to open in for cleaning purposes.

CZ10 Wrote:
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> Of course it's for aesthetic reasons.

I think that the higher ceiling in the obs lounge area allows the lounge area to be better seen from the dome and the dome to be better seen from the lounge area. Adds to the feeling of spaciousness. Just a theory.

A possibly related design consideration is that the CZ, DZ and Canadian consists had limited dome seating in the first class sections of the train. On the CZ and Canadian, it could become somewhat claustrophobic in a Pullman room over the course of a long transcontinental journey. This may be why the railroads opted for the more open, raised ceiling design. Capacity constrained, they wanted to make the obs lounge just as nice a place to hang out as a seat in the dome. Also, in the Rockies and Feather River, passengers were encouraged to rotate out of the dome frequently. The obs lounge gave them another place to go.

A seat in the dome or looking out the back in the obs? Either one works equally well for me.

Bob

czephyr17 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> That was always my assumption, and the inner
> window was hinged to open in for cleaning
> purposes.


Yes that IS the air duct,, between the glasses of the center window
hoboron
http://www.mainlinemotionpictures.com

"DutchDoor" gets the 5 points! I always thought it was a rather ingenious setup. I always thought those Budd domes were the height of the car builder's art, but after riding Alaska Railroad domes with the upper level open observation platform, my loyalty is wavering.....



DutchDoor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CZ10 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > As far as the AC duct into the dome, I can tell
> > you that it while it's the same arrangement
> used
> > for all of the CZ domes, it is NOT located in
> the
> > pillars! Another hint is that the air comes up
> > from the rear of the dome (makes sense, since
> the
> > air handler is over the lounge).
> >
> Could the air have been pumped through the space
> between in inner and outer window pains of the
> center window? The inner windows were hinged at
> the bottom and could be opened inward. I always
> thought that was for cleaning purposes.