Nostalgia & History > From "Restricting" to "Approach"

Just out of curiosity for railroads such as the SP, when did Red over Yellow change from "Restricting" to "Diverging Approach"?

When was it "restricting" on SP?

timz2 Wrote:
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> When was it "restricting" on SP?


Up until the 60's I think. Previous to that, back to the start of ABS systems ALL yellow signals meant "Restricting". That changed when a high yellow meant reduce to medium speed in the 50's I believe. On the SP you could inly diverge faster than restricted speed if you got a red over green.

I would like yellow has always meant APPROACH as the signal displayed between a green CLEAR and a red STOP. I know on the SP, lower quadrant semaphores (whose arms had only two position, straight out=RED, down almost vertical=GREEN) that a green over red was an approach aspect.

BNSF6400 Wrote:
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> I would like yellow has always meant APPROACH as
> the signal displayed between a green CLEAR and a
> red STOP. I know on the SP, lower quadrant
> semaphores (whose arms had only two position,
> straight out=RED, down almost vertical=GREEN) that
> a green over red was an approach aspect.


My 1926 Santa Fe Rulebook shows yellow meaning "Approach, reduce to restricted speed". Later it was "Approach, reduce to Medium Speed". My main question is still when did red over yellow become "diverging approach" from "Proceed on diverging route at restricted speed".

To understand the change of the definition of the signals, we need to also understand the rule definition of "with caution" and "restricted speed" In older SP rulebooks (the one I have is 1930) "with caution" was

"To run at reduced speed, according to conditions, prepared to stop short of train, engine, car, misplaced switch, derail, or other obstruction, or before reaching a stop signal. Where circumstances require, train must be preceded by a flagman."

From the perspective of current rules, this is a blend of "restricted speed" and "approach" concepts.

Rule 602A of 1930 (red over yellow)was "Proceed on Diverging Route With Caution"
Rule 588 of 1960 (also R/Y) was "Proceed on Diverging Route at Restricted Speed"
Rule 9.1.12 of a Metrolink General Code of Operations Timetable Supplement (and typical of most GCOR roads) (R/Y) is "Proceed on Diverging Route Not Exceeding Prescribed Speed Through Turnout(s) and be prepared to stop at the next signal. Trains exceeding 40 MPH must begin reduction to 40MPH as soon as head end passes signal."

It changed after the FRA said that the railroads couldn't give a train a red over green indication when entering a siding as that told the train they were lined out at the other end. The change might have been around 1973 which was when the SP went to the blue rule book. The FRA said that was a no-no. So, it got changed to red over yellow which said you had to be prepared to stop at the next signal when entering a controlled siding.

If the siding was occupied you would get a red over lunar which was "Proceed at restricted speed without stopping on other than main track."

Now, if you're going to enter a siding you'll get a red over yellow which is normal and makes sense. If you're going to enter a siding that's occupied, you'll either get a red over lunar or a red over flashing red. I've received both.

JDE

So on CTC routes used by Amtrak where the red over green is used, is
this an FRA exception or a general rules change??

You'll get a red over green only when lined thru the siding and out the other end.

Steamjocky Wrote:
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> It changed after the FRA said that the railroads
> couldn't give a train a red over green indication
> when entering a siding as that told the train they
> were lined out at the other end. The change might
> have been around 1973 which was when the SP went
> to the blue rule book. The FRA said that was a
> no-no. So, it got changed to red over yellow
> which said you had to be prepared to stop at the
> next signal when entering a controlled siding.
>
> If the siding was occupied you would get a red
> over lunar which was "Proceed at restricted speed
> without stopping on other than main track."
>
> Now, if you're going to enter a siding you'll get
> a red over yellow which is normal and makes sense.
> If you're going to enter a siding that's
> occupied, you'll either get a red over lunar or a
> red over flashing red. I've received both.
>
> JDE

So previously you got a red over green even if you had a red Home signal at the other end?

ats90mph Wrote:
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> So previously you got a red over green even if you
> had a red Home signal at the other end?


Ross,
On the SP, yes we did. And, as John (SteamJocky) said, the FRA didn't like that, so it was changed to a red over yellow and then the red at the other end. It was weird coming into a siding in the old days on a red over green, knowing full well that the signal at the other end of the siding was red.But on the other hand, we were all used to that type of system.

V

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