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Date: 03/26/12 18:25
SP P-8 #2467 Story
Author: speeder3

In response to the recent posts about SP P-8 #2472 on the "Steam Railroading" page, I thought I'd post some photos of sister P-8 #2467 that is owned by the Pacific Locomotive Association. I will start out by apologizing for the poor quality of the photos. The scans are from 35mm slides that I shot with my trusty old AE-1 during a period when I didn't realize that my camera's electronics were going downhill. I've tried to correct the poor exposures to the best of my limited abilities.

Following retirement from the SP (in 1957?), the #2467 and two passenger cars (a baggage car, and business car "Western") was placed on display in "Railroad Park" at the corner of Webster and 7th streets in downtown Oakland, CA. During the 1980's, a small group of adventuresome folks organized the "Friends of the #2467" group and began work on the locomotive to return it to operation, someday. Led by SP employees Errol Ohman and Mike Nichols, the Friends performed whatever restoration work they could manage (and what the City would allow, I suppose). By the end of the decade, the City had other plans for the park (a Chinese pagoda had already been erected) and began looking for a new home for the equipment. Proposals were solicited by outside parties, and initially the Napa Valley Wine Train was selected to take the #2467 and the business car. The Western Railway Museum at Rio Vista, Jct. was granted the baggage car. The PLA's proposal came in second to the NVWT. For reasons unknown to me, however, the NVWT opted out of the deal and the PLA became the new steward of the P-8 and car. It was then up to the PLA to come up the funds to move the equipment out of Oakland. I remember how tense it was at the PLA meetings when the subject of funds was discussed, but then PLA co-founder Mr. Henry Luna announced that an anonymous party had donated the money to move the steam locomotive. I believe that person was Reed Hatch, but I'm not certain. Plans were immediately set into motion to move the equipment out of the park. The "Western" was moved by truck directly to Niles Canyon, but the #2467 was slated to move to live rail on the west side of the City. The PLA had most of its collection of rolling stock in storage at the Oakland Army Base, and had a good relationship with the Oakland Terminal Railway, so putting it on OTR rails was a no-brainer. During this planning phase, PLA volunteers constructed an extension to a spur at the OTR office where the #2467 would be stored and rebuilt for service.

Photos 1 and 2 show the #2467 and its tender being prepared for movement out of Railroad Park. My notes say these were taken on December 12, 1990.

Photo 3 shows the #2467 heading up Webster St., getting ready to turn west onto 8th Street. This was on a very cold December 22nd. I remember my fingers stuck to my camera a couple of times.

More to come.
-----

Brian Wise








Date: 03/26/12 18:30
Re: SP P-8 #2467 Story
Author: rattenne

Cool photos. I have photos of it stuffed and mounted in Oakland and then live, under steam at Railfar99. Never had a chance to shoot it under steam and it looks like I never will.




Date: 03/26/12 18:42
Re: SP P-8 #2467 Story
Author: speeder3

Photo 4 shows the #2467 making a right turn off 8th St. onto Castro Street.

Photo 5 was taken after the tender had already been moved to the OTR trackage on Poplar Street. The OTR's ex-ATSF GP-9 had just arrived and was preparing to push the tender towards the #2467 (out of frame to the left). December 25, 1990.

Photo 6 shows a bunch of really happy guys who had just pulled off a seemingly impossible project. Left to right are: Henry Luna, John Hogan, Errol Ohman, Mike Nichols, (I know his name but can't think of it at the moment), and Phil Copple (OTR Supt.).

-----
Brian Wise








Date: 03/26/12 18:51
Re: SP P-8 #2467 Story
Author: speeder3

Photo 7 was taken on Christmas Day, 1990, and shows OTR #97 (still wearing its old ATSF number) pulling the #2467 north out of downtown Oakland to a temporary storage spot under the Interstate 80/880 interchange.

Photo 8 was taken on June 15, 1991. The #2467 sat on this spur for almost six months while a suitable location to store and rebuild the locomotive was being constructed at the Oakland Army Base. The SP moved the #2467 from this location to the SP/OTR interchange located at 7th and Maritime.

Photo 9 shows the #2467 in the midst of its overhaul at the Oakland Army Base. This was June, 1999 and Railfair was getting close.

-----
Brian Wise








Date: 03/26/12 18:58
Re: SP P-8 #2467 Story
Author: speeder3

Here are the last two for this story:

Photo 10 is of project manager Errol Ohman in the cab of the #2467 in June of 1999, during the big push to have the engine ready to run to Sacramento.

Photo 11 was taken during Railfair '99 and shows the #2467 out on the CSRM's trackage (the "Sacramento Southern") with CSRM's ex-SP subs. A keen eye will note that the visor is missing from the front headlight. I rode this trip in the vestibule of the first coach, which on the southbound run was coupled to the nose of the #2467. While taking video, I managed to catch the visor falling off of the headlight when the engineer decided to set up the air and work the engine a little. The visor was later recovered and returned to its proper place.

Hope you enjoyed the photos.

Brian Wise






Date: 03/26/12 19:23
Re: SP P-8 #2467 Story
Author: speeder3

I just remembered the fellow's name. That is Lee Barnett.

Brian

speeder3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Photo 6 shows a bunch of really happy guys who had
> just pulled off a seemingly impossible project.
> Left to right are: Henry Luna, John Hogan, Errol
> Ohman, Mike Nichols, (I know his name but can't
> think of it at the moment), and Phil Copple (OTR
> Supt.).
>
> -----
> Brian Wise



Date: 03/26/12 19:32
Re: SP P-8 #2467 Story
Author: kilroydiver

Is it still in operating condition, sitting over at the CSRM?

Dave



Date: 03/26/12 19:40
Re: SP P-8 #2467 Story
Author: speeder3

kilroydiver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is it still in operating condition, sitting over
> at the CSRM?
>
> Dave

Technically, yes, it is in operating condition. To be operated, however, the boiler would require a full FRA 1472-day inspection. Compounding that, the #2467 suffers from an overheated crown brass in one of its driving boxes.

Brian



Date: 03/26/12 20:04
Re: SP P-8 #2467 Story
Author: john1082

speeder3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Technically, yes, it is in operating condition.
> To be operated, however, the boiler would require
> a full FRA 1472-day inspection. Compounding that,
> the #2467 suffers from an overheated crown brass
> in one of its driving boxes.

A 1472 inspection I can understand and I bet it would do well there as it has so little time on the boiler since leaving the park.

But what is the story on the 'crown brass'? First, what is a crown brass? Second, what damage does overheating do to it? I would guess that it softens the piece. Third, how tough is it to make a new crown brass?

John Gezelius
Tustin, CA



Date: 03/26/12 21:01
Re: SP P-8 #2467 Story
Author: speeder3

john1082 Wrote:

> A 1472 inspection I can understand and I bet it
> would do well there as it has so little time on
> the boiler since leaving the park.
>
> But what is the story on the 'crown brass'?
> First, what is a crown brass? Second, what damage
> does overheating do to it? I would guess that it
> softens the piece. Third, how tough is it to make
> a new crown brass?

True, the boiler accumulated very few service days since the locomotive left the park, but overall the boiler has had considerable wear. A full UT inspection of the barrel and firebox sheets would probably reveal some work to be done. I don't know if anyone knows for sure just when the tubes and flues were installed by the SP, but it stands to reason that new tubes would be necessary. The flues could be UT'd to determine if they could be used. Again, it's unknown just how many service days the tubes and flues actually have on them.

The "crown brass" is the arched shaped bearing that supports the locomotive on the driving axles. Within the frame, there are two driving boxes on each driving axle. Each driving box has a crown brass. I've attached a photo taken when we removed the #4 driving wheel set from our Baldwin 2-8-2, the ex-Polson Logging #70. You can see one of the driving boxes sitting on the floor just to the left of the wheel. The arched shape of the bearing can be seen. In the case of the #2467, it's a long story but while the locomotive was being stored at Oakland, it was parked beside a concrete recycling plant (the Oakland Army Base's yard tracks had been torn out) that was set up during the reconstruction of the I-80 approaches to the Oakland-San Francisco Bay Bridge. It is believed that concrete dust managed to get in between one of the crown brasses and the axle. The #2467 was later allowed to operate over the mainline on its way to Oakdale, CA to participate in a steam "round up" on the Sierra Railroad. At some point during the trip, one of the bearings began running very hot and the trip was scrubbed. The #2467 was then hauled to the Golden Gate Railroad Museum's facility near San Francisco where it was stored for some time before eventually going to CSRM for display. But I digress. To answer your question, if for some reason the driving box bearing were to lose lubrication, or in the case of the #2467 become fouled by something abrasive like concrete dust, the thin film of lubricant between the bearing and the axle will be compromised resulting in increased friction. Several things can occur, including scoring of the axle's journal surface, scoring of the bearing brass, and overheating of both the bearing and the axle. In extreme cases, the overheated bearing can ignite the lubricant causing all sorts of swearing and flailing of the arms. Just one reason why the Class 1 railroad's don't much care for steam locomotives running around. They can really tie up the system if things don't go just right.

As for replacing a crown brass, it's really not that difficult as long as you have the right tools. First, you have to drop the offending driving wheel set, so a drop table is pretty handy. Next comes a lot of inspecting to see what can be saved, and what needs to go. Sometimes the bearing and the axle's journal surface can be re-machined and placed back into service. If the crown brass is really bad off, then it has to be pressed out of the driving box and replaced. A new bearing brass is poured and machined to fit the box, then bored to the proper diameter to fit the axle. That's about it.

Brian




Date: 03/26/12 21:15
Re: SP P-8 #2467 Story
Author: john1082

Ah, many thanks!

John Gezelius
Tustin, CA



Date: 03/26/12 22:17
Re: SP P-8 #2467 Story
Author: KeyRouteKen

I can remember the 2467 not only in the Harrison Railroad Park but for many years in West Oakland Yard. I saw it often and it was therefore a popular engine for the SP to use in service.

I hated to see PLA place her at CSRM in Sacto. After all of the time and money invested in her to make her operational, she was abandoned for all time. Why did the "Friends" group do what they did? It was a wasted effort folks.

When they ran the trip to Tracy and Oakdale and the "brass" overheated, "WHAT IF" it either did NOT overheat or somehow it was repaired right away, would you still need the 1472 inspection or not and the engine could have run for a while.
If the engine was REALLY that close to needing a 1472 inspection, then why did Steam-expert UPRR let it go ahead and run to Sacto for railfair ??
Fair questions, don't you think ?? Between GGRM and PLA, they have the 2472. I really don't think they wanted "competition" on the property.
The dream among many was that someday, a triple-header would run... 2472, 2467, and 2479.
That dream is now dead! However, I'll say special thanks to Howard and Brian Wise, Errol Olman and especially, Mike Nichols, who got 2467 out of the Park and a brief chance to live again.

KRK



Date: 03/26/12 23:19
Re: SP P-8 #2467 Story
Author: Evan_Werkema

#5 and 6 look like 14th and Poplar. How did 2467 get across the SP main? Did it go over the flyover, or did SP take it through the Desert Yard and the Oakland Army Base?

This old thread has a John Harder photo of 2467 being trucked to the park in 1960:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?10,1073313,1074650#1074650

KRK has some additional photos of 2467 being extracted from the park in 1990 here:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,1050663,1050669#1050669



Date: 03/27/12 05:16
Re: SP P-8 #2467 Story
Author: sp5623

Evan_Werkema Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How did 2467
> get across the SP main? Did it go over the
> flyover, or did SP take it through the Desert Yard
> and the Oakland Army Base?
>
The locomotive was way to heavy to take over the flyover so the OTR gave it to the SP who took it to our interchange at 7th street and gave it back to the OTR. It was then brought to Baldwin Yard via the trackage down Maritime Ave. At that time, the OTR had no rights to access to Knight yard on the base. That didn't happen until after the base closed.

Howard



Date: 03/27/12 06:11
Re: SP P-8 #2467 Story
Author: HogBoyJr

Ken, never say never. The 2467 will one day steam again. Yes it needs a lot of work, just like it did before, but with the right folk it can be made to run again.

Brian, if we are going to replace one crown brass we might as well do them all. Also, the shoes and wedges need to be built up. All driving boxes need work. Pins and bushings need work. It's not a simple matter of a single crown brass and polishing an axle out.

Great pictures by the way and brings back some good memories.



Date: 03/27/12 07:49
Re: SP P-8 #2467 Story
Author: DWDebs/2472

The 1472 day inspection is required by the "new" (as of the year 2000) FRA rules for steam locomotives, 49CFR230 "Inspection and Maintenance Standards for Steam Locomotives". A PDF file is at: http://www.steamcentral.com/documents/49cfr230.pdf

It's a large job indeed.

Typically the procedure includes:
1. Remove headlight, headlight bracket, and smokebox front. Remove all 40 superheater elements.
2. All boiler tubes and superheater flues are removed from the interior. They have to be cut out with a torch. Often the throttle is removed as well to get better access to the interior.
3. Remove all firebrick from firebox. Buy new firebrick for all the brick damaged in removal. (i.e. lots of firebrick).
4. All exterior piping, running boards, sand dome, bell, cab, boiler jacket and insulation are removed from the exterior. Scrub exterior with power tools to remove old paint and rust.
5. Use a small grinder to polish a 1/2" to 1" diameter smooth spot every 6" x 6" on the boiler exterior, and firebox interior. Use an ultrasonic thickness measurement tool to measure and record thickness on a 6" x 6" grid - entire boiler exterior, plus firebox interior. Take data at closer intervals in corroded areas.
6. Calculate (by hand - show your work!) the safe working strength of every piece of steel, every riveted joint, and every welded joint in the boiler shell. If you can't find the old recorsds on test strengths of each piece of steel used, then you have to derate the working pressure because you have to use weak default worst-case values per the code. Calculation can take up to 2000 hours (a man-year).
7. Inspect for cracks (dye penetrant test or other method) flue sheets, firebox, anywhere else that might be a problem. Grind out cracks and weld up, grind flush, check again for cracks. If damage is too severe, make new parts and replace old pieces.
8. Clean out and Flannery-test every hollow-bored staybolt.
9. Hydro-test superheater elements.
10. If you don't have access to a special "safe-ending" machine to resistance-weld new ends on the tubes and flues without leaving a bead inside or outside - and I don't think any safe-ending machines exist anymore - then you have to buy new tubes and flues. The steel costs $60k-$80k probably + long leadtime for these made-to-order obsolete tube and flue sizes.
11. Put it all back together. Call the FRA inspector at appropriate intervals to witness the work.
12. Hydro test and steam test, with FRA inspector ditto.

This procedure is designed to ensure safety. It does. It's a very large amount of work and $$$, even if the boiler is in perfect condition. Thankfully we now get credit for time out of service, so the 1472 days can be spread over 15 years with appropriate less-invasive inspections during that time.

- Doug Debs



Date: 03/27/12 08:10
Re: SP P-8 #2467 Story
Author: speeder3

KeyRouteKen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hated to see PLA place her at CSRM in Sacto.
> After all of the time and money invested in her to
> make her operational, she was abandoned for all
> time. Why did the "Friends" group do what they
> did? It was a wasted effort folks.
>
> When they ran the trip to Tracy and Oakdale and
> the "brass" overheated, "WHAT IF" it either did
> NOT overheat or somehow it was repaired right
> away, would you still need the 1472 inspection or
> not and the engine could have run for a while.
> If the engine was REALLY that close to needing a
> 1472 inspection, then why did Steam-expert UPRR
> let it go ahead and run to Sacto for railfair ??
> Fair questions, don't you think ?? Between GGRM
> and PLA, they have the 2472. I really don't think
> they wanted "competition" on the property.
> The dream among many was that someday, a
> triple-header would run... 2472, 2467, and 2479.
> That dream is now dead! However, I'll say special
> thanks to Howard and Brian Wise, Errol Olman and
> especially, Mike Nichols, who got 2467 out of the
> Park and a brief chance to live again.
>
> KRK

Ken,
I don't have all of the answers for you, as I was really not involved in the move of the #2467, nor its restoration (other than helping with the cab and tender lettering), but thanks for the "thanks" just the same.

Just to be fair to Errol, Mike and others, the "Friends" group was absorbed into the PLA when the PLA was awarded custody of the #2467 by the City, so the decision to later move the engine to CSRM was the PLA's. I can't say for sure why this decision was made. I can only offer my opinion, which is I believe the PLA wanted a better place to store the #2467 than Brightside. When the GGRM equipment was moved into the Canyon, Brightside became a parking lot. Everything there, save for the Quincy #2 and Robert Dollar #3 that are stored inside the shop, has to endure the elements. And space is at a premium. The PLA would probably love to have its own P-8 in the Canyon with the rest of its collection, but to what end? So it could sit outside and deteriorate, especially after so much work was put into making it operational? Going to CSRM put the locomotive indoors, in a climate controlled environment, where thousands of people can enjoy it on a daily basis. Could it get moved to the Canyon someday? Certainly. Are there plans to do that someday? Perhaps. When I was on the PLA's Master Plan Committee, I was involved in the designs for Brightside and Niles, and I drew the Niles layout to include a turntable, roundhouse, and associated structures. In the back of my mind was the crazy thought that someday all three SP Pacifics could reside there, along with other restored PLA equipment. Who knows, maybe someday it will happen. I certainly don't think the dream is dead. There are just a number of other things that have to happen first.

Getting back to your comment about the 1472-day, you have to remember that when the #2467 was returned to operation, steam locomotives were still governed by the "old" (pre-2000) Part 240 regulations. After the boiler received its internal inspection and hydrostatic test, the FRA could (and no doubt did in this case) grant a waiver or extension for use of the existing tubes and flues. I have no idea what the particulars of that waiver or extension might have been, but it certainly allowed the PLA to operate that boiler for a number of years. With that in mind, could the bearing issue have been addressed and the locomotive continued in service? Probably, but without a suitable means of dropping the drivers to properly inspect the journals and crown brasses, it would have been difficult. The GGRM (and #4449) guys know all about jacking a locomotive to the rafters to do driver work. You do what you have to do to get it done, but you have to be in the right place with the right materials, neither of which the PLA had. Incidentally, the PLA now has a drop table at Brightside, and if I recall correctly, it was designed to handle the #2467's drivers (Johnathon will correct me if I'm wrong). So again, never say never.

Brian



Date: 03/27/12 10:36
Re: SP P-8 #2467 Story
Author: Bull_Ring

A late afternoon crew photo on the first day the #2467 was moved under its own power in Oakland. Left to right - Brian Wilson, Mike Russell, Phil Copple, John Manley, Henry Luna, Elizabeth Ohman, Errol Ohman and Jim Plunkett. The majority of the core volunteers that worked on the #2467 (John and Elizabeth were not involved in the restoration) are included in this picture, but many other Pacific Locomotive Association (PLA) members spent many hours helping to return the locomotive to service. The shadows in the photograph are because the planned "morning" first move occurred so late in the day after we spent the morning tearing the air pump apart to get it working ... but that is another story.

The second photograph is of the SP #2467 at Railfair in Sacramento. As for returning the locomotive to service ... never say never. But for those of us that might be involved if PLA decides to attempt to return her to service, we will appreciate the forethought of the PLA to work out an agreement with CSRM to have her stored indoors and protected from the weather all these years.

Anyone have several hundred thousand dollars to donate to kick start the restoration fund for the #2467 and build a building at Niles Canyon to restore the locomotive in...? As Brian mentions above, the Niles Canyon Railway master plan provides facilities for the #2467 and other locomotives down in Niles. That this has not happened is not due to the lack of desire or effort, PLA has accomplished a lot over the last 25 years in Niles Canyon, but the main missing ingredient in the Niles Plans is a WHOLE lot of MONEY.






Date: 03/27/12 12:16
Re: SP P-8 #2467 Story
Author: Inthehole

Brian,

Well said.



Date: 03/27/12 12:29
Re: SP P-8 #2467 Story
Author: HogBoyJr

John Manley was involved in the restoration effort. He got dirty with the rest of us whenever he could. Liz also helped out a lot towards the final push.

The brick story is a fun one....
I sure am gonna hate the day that we have to rip out the brick work. The bricklayers did a BEEEEEEUUUUUTIFUL job. All the bricks were donated and the labor only cost us about 7 twelve packs of Bud Light and lunch for 3 days. Yes, it only took them 3 days to brick the firebox. "Bones" Andrews was a boilermaker for Shell Oil in Richmond. In his retirement years, after putting in a days work on the 2467 and other projects in Oakland, would hang out in a bar called The Spot in Richmond. He met up with a few bricklayers that worked for J.T. Thorpe And Sons that also hung out there. They always told Bones that when we were ready to lay the bricks that they would be happy to come do it for us. When the day came, we called them in on their offer. They went to their yard on a Sunday afternoon with a pickup truck and trailer. They loaded up the truck and trailer with all the bricks and mortar we needed plus a borrowed brick saw. Over the next 3 days they proceeded to lay bricks and mortar that probably would have taken us mere mortals about a month to do correctly. It was a thing of beauty when they finished. Those guys have a lifetime pass for cab rides. Without this (as well as many other) generous donation, we probably wouldn't have gotten the engine ready in time for Railfair.

BTW, if anyone wants to check out a few pics of the restoration effort, Howard Wise did a great job of photographing and posting the photos over on this site:
http://cencalrails.railfan.net/sp2467.html



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