Nostalgia & History > SP Passenger Trains, any runs above 79 MPH?

Howdy all,

Thought this would be the appropriate forum for this since I'm asking about the late 50's and early 60's. I was able to acquire some
older timetables from the late 50's and early 60's and the maximum speed I see for passenger trains on all the lines was 79 mph.
I thought SP had ATS on some lines to permit 90 mph max speeds. Of course, on Amtrak day I know things changed, but I'm surprised
none of these timetables show 90 mph running. The timetables are the Coast Division, L.A. Division, San Joaquin Division and a
Western Division

Thanks so much in advance for any answers.

TopCat



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/12 08:20 by TopCat.

As far as I know, 79 was the max on the SP. All those speeds were lowered to 70 mph when the newer power showed up with the OS set for 72-73 mph. It stayed that way for years until Atk pushed speeds back to 79 in some places.

As far as ATS, it was used on a short section from Oakland to Sparks, I think. It was installed for another reason when they did it. Something about the power on The City ran through so ATS had to be installed from Ogden to Oakland ?

The old speeds were 49-59 in dark, train order territory
79 with train order and automatic block signals.
90 with train orders, automatic block signals and cab control signals.
110 with train order, automatic block signals, cab control signals and Automatic Train Stop.

SP never had any cab signals that I am aware of.


Nudge

TopCat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Howdy all,
>
> Thought this would be the appropriate forum for
> this since I'm asking about the late 50's and
> early 60's. I was able to acquire some
> older timetables from the late 50's and early 60's
> and the maximum speed I see for passenger trains
> on all the lines was 79 mph.
> I thought SP had ATS on some lines to permit 90
> mph max speeds. Of course, on Amtrak day I know
> things changed, but I'm surprised
> none of these timetables show 90 mph running. The
> timetables are the Coast Division, L.A. Division,
> San Joaquin Division and a
> Western Division
>
> Thanks so much in advance for any answers.
>
> TopCat


Of course, pre-1947 may have seen speeds exceeding 79MPH on the COSF route across Nevada.

> I thought SP had ATS on some lines to permit 90
> mph max speeds.

SP had a bit of ATS or ATC or whatever it was,
but no 79+ mph after ... 1950? The ATS was
left over-- nothing to do with the 1947 rule.

timz2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > I thought SP had ATS on some lines to permit 90
> > mph max speeds.
>
> SP had a bit of ATS or ATC or whatever it was,
> but no 79+ mph after ... 1950? The ATS was
> left over-- nothing to do with the 1947 rule.

Trains no. 101 and 102 had speeds across portions of the Salt Lake Division in the 1930 and 1940's in excess of 90 MPH.

In a previous life I was in and out of DORIS, CA may times working on ATMs. IIRC the hi-way was next to the SP mainline and while driving I would notice the speed limit signs indicating a limit of 90-60 and 70-60. This would have been in the late 70s early 80s. Fremont has speed limit signs 79-55.

> In a previous life I was in and out of DORIS, CA...
> ...I would notice the speed limit signs indicating
> a limit of 90-60 and 70-60. This would have been
> in the late 70s early 80s.

I'm guessing the rest of us missed out on that
previous life.

I'll say..

>Thought this would be the appropriate forum for this since I'm asking about the late 50's and early 60's. I was able to acquire some older timetables from the late 50's and early 60's and the maximum speed I see for passenger trains on all the lines was 79 mph. I thought SP had ATS on some lines to permit 90 mph max speeds. Of course, on Amtrak day I know things changed, but I'm surprised none of these timetables show 90 mph running. The timetables are the Coast Division, L.A. Division, San Joaquin Division and a Western Division

c1950, the ICC issued a ruling that without cab signals or ATS, max train speeds could not be 70 Frt and 80 Psgr. Before that, it was up to the RR. What the trains actually did after this ruling depends on how diligently the RRs enforced it.

The SP had ATS over Donner Summit (SW 9 to Truckee, I believe) and between Tracy and Oakland via Mtz, not sure about further down the Valley and no ATS between Mtz and SW 9. It had only about a mile of "cab signals": from the the red electric flyovers just east of 16th St Station to the connections to the SF-O Bridge Railway.

The max Psgr speeds were dropped from 79 to 70 the day Atk took over in 1971. Sometime during the 1980s, 79 mph territories started coming back.

EtoinShrdlu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >Thought this would be the appropriate forum for
> this since I'm asking about the late 50's and
> early 60's. I was able to acquire some older
> timetables from the late 50's and early 60's and
> the maximum speed I see for passenger trains on
> all the lines was 79 mph. I thought SP had ATS on
> some lines to permit 90 mph max speeds. Of course,
> on Amtrak day I know things changed, but I'm
> surprised none of these timetables show 90 mph
> running. The timetables are the Coast Division,
> L.A. Division, San Joaquin Division and a Western
> Division
>
> c1950, the ICC issued a ruling that without cab
> signals or ATS, max train speeds could not be 70
> Frt and 80 Psgr. Before that, it was up to the RR.
> What the trains actually did after this ruling
> depends on how diligently the RRs enforced it.
>
> The SP had ATS over Donner Summit (SW 9 to
> Truckee, I believe) and between Tracy and Oakland
> via Mtz, not sure about further down the Valley
> and no ATS between Mtz and SW 9. It had only about
> a mile of "cab signals": from the the red electric
> flyovers just east of 16th St Station to the
> connections to the SF-O Bridge Railway.
>
> The max Psgr speeds were dropped from 79 to 70 the
> day Atk took over in 1971. Sometime during the
> 1980s, 79 mph territories started coming back.

ATS Gold Run to Truckee

Like somebody said, most? all? SP 79-mph
limits dropped to 70 a couple years before
Amtrak started.

I suspect as far as the ICC's 1947 rule went,
freights were allowed 79 on the same ABS
track where passenger was allowed 79.

JLY Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> timz2 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > I thought SP had ATS on some lines to permit
> 90
> > > mph max speeds.
> >
> > SP had a bit of ATS or ATC or whatever it was,
> > but no 79+ mph after ... 1950? The ATS was
> > left over-- nothing to do with the 1947 rule.
>
> Trains no. 101 and 102 had speeds across portions
> of the Salt Lake Division in the 1930 and 1940's
> in excess of 90 MPH.

Correct. It was 95 MPH unless otherwise restricted on the Western, Sacramento and Salt Lake Division

Examples from:
Western 228; 1/15/1939
Sacramento 159; 8/1/1939
Salt Lake 53; 6/12/1938

The peice mentioned at Dorris, was changed from 70 to 79 with Atk's pushing. (It was good for 98 with a stuck speedometer on an ATK engine and rode better than 79 anyway)

SP had lowered the speed from 79 to 70 before Atk took over. All their engines had a max of 73 mph gearing, except some of the old covered wagons that were left. Some of the speed boards were not changed right away because they were going to and did replace all reduce speed boards out 2 miles. They were 3/4 of a mile. Engineers bitched for many years to get this done and it was great for new engineers.

Well, Along comes the UP and that went down the hopper like a lot of other things.


Nudge

WAF Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> EtoinShrdlu Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > >Thought this would be the appropriate forum
> for
> > this since I'm asking about the late 50's and
> > early 60's. I was able to acquire some older
> > timetables from the late 50's and early 60's
> and
> > the maximum speed I see for passenger trains on
> > all the lines was 79 mph. I thought SP had ATS
> on
> > some lines to permit 90 mph max speeds. Of
> course,
> > on Amtrak day I know things changed, but I'm
> > surprised none of these timetables show 90 mph
> > running. The timetables are the Coast Division,
> > L.A. Division, San Joaquin Division and a
> Western
> > Division
> >
> > c1950, the ICC issued a ruling that without cab
> > signals or ATS, max train speeds could not be
> 70
> > Frt and 80 Psgr. Before that, it was up to the
> RR.
> > What the trains actually did after this ruling
> > depends on how diligently the RRs enforced it.
> >
> > The SP had ATS over Donner Summit (SW 9 to
> > Truckee, I believe) and between Tracy and
> Oakland
> > via Mtz, not sure about further down the Valley
> > and no ATS between Mtz and SW 9. It had only
> about
> > a mile of "cab signals": from the the red
> electric
> > flyovers just east of 16th St Station to the
> > connections to the SF-O Bridge Railway.
> >
> > The max Psgr speeds were dropped from 79 to 70
> the
> > day Atk took over in 1971. Sometime during the
> > 1980s, 79 mph territories started coming back.
>
> ATS Gold Run to Truckee

SP's (not including the GH&SA) original ATS (SP erroneously labeled it ATC) installation as required by ICC order 13413 of 1922 was between Oakland Pier and Fresno via Mococo and West Valley. The districts were chosen by the ICC, not the SP. The equipment was from the National Safety Appliance Company and installation was completed by 1926. All locomotives, freight and passenger, operating in this territory were required to have ATS.

From here, things get murky.


By April 24, 1932 SP installed ATS (listed as ATC) between Emigrant Gap and Andover.

By October 28, 1934 ATS was deactivated between Tracy and Fresno.

By February 6, 1938 ATS was extended from Truckee to Gold Run.

When the depression hit the country, many railroads began to seek relief from Order 13413. In some cases (mainly from poor railroads), the ICC granted complete discontinuance of ATS in lieu of ABS. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that the SP requested that the ICC allow them to discontinue ATS on all districts except for passenger trains, and to discontinue ATS entirely from Tracy and Fresno. In exchange, the SP would put ATS over the Hill.

The I.C.C. Order of 1947 was the first to couple signal system types with maximum authorized train speeds. Prior to the I.C.C. Order of 1947, the various forms of train control installed by U.S. railroads were intended primarily to improve signal rules compliance (safety) and secondarily as a means to improve capacity. SP's ATS not only predated the 1947 I.C.C. Order but came before the high speed streamliner era which kicked off on the Overland Route in the mid-1930s. Unlike Santa Fe's massive 1950s ATS installation (in response to the 1947 Order), SP's small scale, obsolete and geographically inappropriate ATS system was never contemplated as a means to allow passenger trains to legally exceed 79mph. Further, SP didn't want to spend the money to extend or update ATS on the railroad, so 79mph was established as the system maximum after about 1950.

Other posters have confirmed by timetable data what I've heard anecdotally over the years- SP authorized 80+ mph running < 1950 in only a few territories where competitive passenger schedules dictated higher speeds. This would have been true on the Overland Route and in the San Joaquin and Salinas Valleys in California.

Bob

Interesting stuff, thanks for the information.

TopCat

bnsfbob Wrote:
----------------

> what I've heard anecdotally over the years- SP
> authorized 80+ mph running < 1950 in only a few
> territories where competitive passenger schedules
> dictated higher speeds. This would have been true
> on the Overland Route and in the San Joaquin and
> Salinas Valleys in California.

SP allowed CoSF 95 mph-- I'm guessing they never
had anything over 79 anywhere else, before
or after 1947.

I keep seeing references to ATK. I am not familiar with that.

a737flyer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I keep seeing references to ATK. I am not
> familiar with that.

Their abbreviation for Amtrak.

timz2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bnsfbob Wrote:
> ----------------
>
> > what I've heard anecdotally over the years- SP
> > authorized 80+ mph running < 1950 in only a few
> > territories where competitive passenger
> schedules
> > dictated higher speeds. This would have been
> true
> > on the Overland Route and in the San Joaquin
> and
> > Salinas Valleys in California.
>
> SP allowed CoSF 95 mph-- I'm guessing they never
> had anything over 79 anywhere else, before
> or after 1947.

Correct. The COSF was the only train on the SP ever authorized over 79 MPH, and only if it had the Diesels.

The new Golden State Rocket was to be 95 MPH, but when the ICC on 20 May 1946 issued its "show cause order" limiting passenger trains to 79 MPH without some form of ATS, ATC or cab signaling, the SP quietly shelved its part of the plan for the new train. The SP reasoned the cost of installing ATS for one train was too great.