Nostalgia & History > Milwaukee Road "Lines West" Seniority Roster (#1)

This is the Missoula District engineers roster near the end of operations in 1980. There were a few engineers that had already bailed off "Lines West" by this time since they saw the handwriting on the wall. Still, many remained on the roster and worked right up until the very last day of operations.

Here is some info I can add. Others, like "fbe", can add more, or correct my memory if they are so inclined.


D.W. Rittenhouse - regular hogger on the Missoula switch engine.

J.A. Peterson - worked the helpers out of Avery and later out of Alberton/Haugen.

O. Kinzle - retired off the MRL in 1990. Still living in Missoula last I heard.

A.L. Jennings - also known as "Hap". Was the engineer on the very last eb into Deer Lodge in 1980. Still in Deer Lodge.

G.P. Rainville - also known as "Blondie". Went to work for UP in Las Vegas in 1981. Retired off MRL in 1990. Still in Deer Lodge.

D.L. Beck - believe he also retired off the MRL in 1994. Had worked the helpers out of Helena(?).

J.P. Duffy - worked the helpers out of Alberton/Haugen in 1979. Retired from the BN in Spokane(?).

B.W. Gustafson - mentioned, with photo, in Steinheimers outstanding book "Electric Way Across the Mountains" (same with J.A. Peterson and G.P. Rainville).

K.C. Boynton - there is also a photo of him in one of the books. Went to UP(?), then went to work for the FRA in the LA Basin.


Many of the younger guys also ended up on, and retired from, the MRL. Mr. "santafe199" will recognize some names, as Lance and I have e-mailed back and forth about this subject before.

I have 3 more rosters to post over the next day or two.

Some of you might find this interesting. Remember to scroll all the way down to the bottom:

http://milwaukeeroadarchives.com/MilwaukeeRoadMagazine/1974August.pdf



Allen



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/12 00:58 by bradleymckay.

---

You don't have a seniority list from the D&I Division in Illinois, do you?

JDE

Loyal to the end...such a travesty that these men weren't able to retire on a railroad that should not have been pulled up.

Were the three with 1941 fireman's dates
qualified as engineers sooner than their
engineer's date ?

Thanks

Mark

DPKrause Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Loyal to the end...such a travesty that these men
> weren't able to retire on a railroad that should
> not have been pulled up.

yea, if the milwaukee road could have just survived until the mid to late 80's when the double stack business started booming.........

66

Operating crews on the old Milwaukee Road's Olympian Hiawatha Train 15-16 (which were discontinued between Deer Lodge and Seattle May 22, 1961) were based out of Deer Lodge, MT and work to Avery, ID and return (both train and engine crews) No passenger engine crews change at Alberton, MT. Only freight train operating crews changed at Alberton, MT.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/12 11:44 by RodneyZona.

> yea, if the milwaukee road could have just
> survived until the mid to late 80's when the
> double stack business started booming.........


From what I know, most of the international container "lanes" that would become double stack routes had already been established before the mid-80s with trains using conventional TTX cars. I recall that BN handled SeaLand and Evergreen? trains and UP-CNW handled trains for APL and SeaTrain before double-stack operation began. Double stack services simply replaced the conventional TTX cars on those existing routes & grew from there...

My point here is that the MILW most likely would have had a very difficult time attracting double stack business. Their competitors already had contracts and relationships established with the principal steamship companies who controlled the dbl stack traffic. That traffic required faster running times and better track quality than MILW could provide at that time so the result was that BN and UP-CNW ended up with the business when contracts were put up for bid. MILW's loss of most of their vehicle traffic on that corridor around the mid-'70s signalled that they could no longer provide the fast, consistent service needed to retain traffic of service-sensitive customers. I've wondered also about clearances for double stack along MILW's route - how many tunnels (if any), through (truss-type) and overhead (roadway) bridges and catenary installations would have needed modification to clear stacked containers? What would the cost have been to clear the route for stack traffic? With the poor financial position of the company at that time, it doesn't seem likely that they could have scraped together the funds to finance those projects to clear the route for double stack traffic, even if they could have found a shipper willing to route traffic that way.


Take care,

Mark

I recall Ron Leachman saying the MILW had a good container movement coming out of Tacoma in the 70s and if things had gone the other way, that probably would have increased provided the MILW spent the capaital to lower the tunnel clearances for doublestacks. Would like to hear Rob's comment on this



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/12 08:02 by WAF.

Interestingly, no one with engineer or firing dates from the 60s when this list was published in 1980

Yes, I surely knew most of those fine fellows especially at the top of the roster. There are buckets of stories and the numbers of fireman forced out by the 282 award who later came back. A number of Alberton brakemen went to Washington to earn an a fireman's and engineer's date and finally moved back to Montana when they were short of promoted engineers. Then there were the Iowa guys.

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

Steamjocky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You don't have a seniority list from the D&I
> Division in Illinois, do you?
>
> JDE

I wish I did John but I don't. But I would bet someone out there has one. And I know why you're asking :)


Allen

Talking to Milwaukee Railroaders many thought that actual abandonment would not happen.Threats and rumors were around for years and it was still here.Accumulated senority is difficult to give up.Going to the bottom on a different seniority district and serving your time again is not a pleasant thought.But the old saying is "something that can't last forever,won't".Bill Webb

spider1319 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Talking to Milwaukee Railroaders many thought that
> actual abandonment would not happen.Threats and
> rumors were around for years and it was still
> here.Accumulated senority is difficult to give
> up.Going to the bottom on a different seniority
> district and serving your time again is not a
> pleasant thought.But the old saying is "something
> that can't last forever,won't".Bill Webb

Yes, absolutely correct Bill.

Some really amazing and rather sad stories out there about how life was for many of these employees after the shutdown. And the economy from 1980 to 1984 wasn't very good either, making things even more difficult.

To many the MRL was a God-send. They could retire from MRL and get what they rightly deserved - railroad retirement.

One of the best nicknames for MRL was "Milwaukee Road Lives"...


Allen

Ken Boynton was an Operating Practices inspector for FRA Region 8 out of L.A. A very good and fair guy. I believe he retired a couple of years ago.

Dave



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/12 11:09 by SMV1801leavingguad.

His nickname on the MILW was Klondike for the time he spent in Alaska. I worked with some engineers who worked with him there when I was in Alliance. I never heard a harsh word about him.

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

20, 21, and 22. it takes less than a month to go from fireman to engineer?? must of needed them bad. dave, out.

WAF Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I recall Ron Leachman saying the MILW had a good
> container movement coming out of Tacoma in the 70s
> and if things had gone the other way, that
> probably would have increased provided the MILW
> spent the capaital to lower the tunnel clearances
> for doublestacks. Would like to hear Rob's comment
> on this


I am just catching up to this thread now.

As WAF notes, actually Milw Rd was in a leadership position with respect to container traffic to/from Puget Sound.

In 1973 Milw Rd had 70% of the Port of Seattle business. UP was next, BN was negligible. Milw ran some solid EB container trains in early 1974, and perhaps before then as well. This traffic eroded to BN in response to excessive derailments. Chicago-Milwaukee Corp. management had a tentative deal to transfer the entire Milw Rd to BN, and it restricted funds to repair the track. Worse, the funds that were spent in the Bitterroots were the subject of engineering mistakes that led to a disastrous onslaught of derailments.

Milw did not have double stack clearances and would have had to spend the money to increase tunnel clearances.

When I look at the enginemen seniority roster, I am saddened to see so many of the old heads missing, e.g., Adam Gratz, Fritz Theriault, Dan Rose, Norman Kistler, etc. I assume Gratz and Theriault may have retired, but what happened to Rose and Kistler in 1979?

I believe all of the 1971 hires transferred out from the Iowa Division after the end of passenger service there. Would be curious to know what happened to Duffy and Sullivan.

Best regards,

Rob L.

Best regards,

Rob L.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/12 13:14 by rob_l.

rob_l Wrote
>
>
> Milw did not have double stack clearances and
> would have had to spend the money to increase
> tunnel clearances.
>
Rob, how far away were they from being able to clear doublestacks? Tihe tunnel projects of the early 60's allowed for autoracks + catenary, so it must've been close.

DPKrause Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rob, how far away were they from being able to
> clear doublestacks? The tunnel projects of the
> early 60's allowed for autoracks + catenary, so it
> must've been close.

Well, before the end of the electrification they were not close at all. After the catenary was gone, I am sure they did not have clearance but I am not sure how far they had to go. I suspect you are right, it might have been relatively close after the catenary was gone. There also were a few tunnels on the Gap that would have had to be dealt with.

Best regards,

Rob L.

Is there anything left of the MILW routes that still have rail on them?
Or are they all now hiking trails and people's front yards?