Nostalgia & History > Maroon Monday: Lloyd & Christine!

I first met Lloyd Stagner in November of 1978. I was pretty intimidated around him at first. I had known his name from word of mouth and from several different publication sources. And in those days what self-respecting Santa Fe fan could possibly not know about the August 1975 issue of Trains? I was just a 23 year old nobody who had the the same hobby interests as he did, and as of 6 months prior to our meeting was employed by the Santa Fe, just as he was. But in my mind the comparison ended right there!

By 1980 I was able to talk to Lloyd without ‘shaking in my boots’. And I had been on one memorable railfanning trip with Lloyd & fellow KS Gangster John Arbuckle down in SW Kansas. (see http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,2700294,2700294#msg-2700294> ) Even so I was still a little nervous about approaching Lloyd to see if he would let me duplicate a few of his slides. I guess I should have taken a clue from Bill Gibson. Lloyd’s generosity was equal to Bill’s when it came to sharing photography. Like Bill, He couldn’t have been more gracious about it.

When the day came I drove from Emporia, KS over to his residence in Newton. He took me down to his basement and I was promptly blown away at the sheer volume of RR related printed matter he had amassed, especially RR timetables (employee & otherwise). And I got the definite impression if you asked him for some information he knew exactly what he had & where to go to get it in that amazing collection. We started looking into his photography without me really knowing what I was looking for. But when I mentioned passenger trains in Kansas he knew what slides to show me. As we progressed I remember wanting to ask him a thousand questions. Knowing me I probably did; and just as probably forgot most everything he told me. When it came time for me to go Lloyd threw me a curveball! He APOLOGIZED about his slide quality, telling me how quite often he only had a range-finder to shoot with. Now let’s break this down: Lloyd Stagner, a well-established legend in the railfan community was apologizing about the ‘quality’ of slides that were about to be leeched (copied) out of his collection. I was stunned.

To this day the handful of slide dupes I garnered from Lloyd’s collection are some of the most prized in my entire collection. Among them is this Rock Island shot. I would like to honor Lloyd Stagner’s memory by offering up his magnificent photograph for Maroon Monday. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do!

1. CRI&P 621, nick named “Christine” leads train #39 at Hutchinson, KS on January 1, 1967. Photo by the late Mr. Lloyd Stagner.

Thanks for listening!
Lance Garrels
santafe199



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/22 23:04 by santafe199.

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Lance-

This looks like it is westbound just SW of Hutchinson passing Morton Salt. Am I on the right "track"?

Mike

Lance:

I think that almost all the shots of #621 that I've seen were taken in Chicago area. How far did this unit roam? Did it ever make it to LA as did some Rock E's?

a nice remembrance of Lloyd who passed away six years ago this month at age 84

unclebob Wrote:

> This looks like it is westbound just SW of Hutchinson passing Morton Salt...

With Lloyd's caption info (train #39: odd numbers usually indicate westbound or southbound trains) & the sun angle it's definitely westbound. But I've never actually shot in that part of Hutch, so your deduction about the area is more educated than mine.

Lance

valmont Wrote:

> ...Did it ever make it to LA as did some Rock E's?

I really have no clue, Vince. The fact that the 621 was en route west through Kansas tells me it most likely made it as far as Tucumcari. I know that power was routinely swapped between the Rock Island & the SP, and CRI&P power did make it into LA on occasion. But beyond that all I can do is give you a wild presumption. I'd say odds are the 621 made into LA at least once, but someone with better knowledge than me will have to verify this...

Lance



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/14 10:04 by santafe199.

This b/w photo is off the City of Hutchinson's website. Note the taller brick area matches that in the photo. I wish this had a date on the photo, but it doesn't.

The map shows the layout of Morton Salt currently. The dirt road to the right of the tracks in your original photo is now paved and goes to the parking lot. There are 3 tracks through this area, and the yard just to the SW of this photo that UP uses is called "Morton Yard". This is actually on the west edge of South Hutchinson.

Mike

---

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santafe199 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> valmont Wrote:
>
> > ...Did it ever make it to LA as did some Rock
> E's?
>
> I really have no clue, Vince. The fact that the
> 621 was en route through west Kansas tells me it
> most likely made it as far as Tucumcari. I know
> that power was routinely swapped between the Rock
> Island & the SP, and CRI&P power did make it into
> LA on occasion. But beyond that all I can do is
> give you a wild presumption. I'd say odds are the
> 621 made into LA at least once, but someone with
> better knowledge than me will have to verify
> this...
>
> Lance

Did the 621 ever MU with real E-units? Anyone have photos? I've never seen a shot of it on the Golden State in SoCal.

From the Google aerial it looks like there might have been tracks paralleling Whiteside St. at one time. Rock did not have any branches out of Hutchinson, so who might have gone there?

that was the ATSF H&S District south
it crossed the CRI&P at grade just east of Morton Salt

As to the 621 ( "Christine" ), I have seen photos of it leading and trailing other EMD passenger power on the Rock.
Stagner's "Trackside in Kansas" book has a shot of No.4 with an FP-7/E-7B/Christine lash up as example, so 621
most likely at least made Tucumcari a number of times.

Does anyone else think the last car might be SP? I see some red on it, long after the "Golden State" scheme had passed.

Brian Ehni

twin_star_rocket Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does anyone else think the last car might be SP? I
> see some red on it, long after the "Golden State"
> scheme had passed.
>
> Brian Ehni


Not just SP, but it looks suspiciously like it might be one of the 3 ex-C&O PS 1950 coaches the SP acquired from the C&NW.

valmont Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lance:
>
> I think that almost all the shots of #621 that
> I've seen were taken in Chicago area.

That's what I was thinking too. Interesting to see that they let her out.

- Jeff

millerdc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From the Google aerial it looks like there might
> have been tracks paralleling Whiteside St. at one
> time. Rock did not have any branches out of
> Hutchinson, so who might have gone there?


I believe the Rock did have track into South Hutchinson to an industrial area, along with a wye. I have seen this on older maps. You can see in the one aerial the scar of where I believe the wye way, and on the second photo where the track ran. There is still track crossing the streets in South Hutchinson in places. It may have ran over an connected with the MoPac line, but I don't recall.

The AT&SF branch along Whiteside Street came off the LaJunta sub due north across the Arkansas River and ran south to Kingman, Harper, etc.

Mike



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/14 15:29 by unclebob.

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---

Topfuel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> twin_star_rocket Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Does anyone else think the last car might be SP?
> I
> > see some red on it, long after the "Golden
> State"
> > scheme had passed.
> >
> > Brian Ehni
>
>
> Not just SP, but it looks suspiciously like it
> might be one of the 3 ex-C&O PS 1950 coaches the
> SP acquired from the C&NW.

I enlarged is as much as possible.It looks like
an orange upper with stainless lower.

Uncle Joe,Seffner,Fl.

So what happened to Lloyd's photo collection??

Rich


santafe199 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I first met Lloyd Stagner in November of 1978. I
> was pretty intimidated around him at first. I had
> known his name from word of mouth and from several
> different publication sources. And in those days
> what self-respecting Santa Fe fan could possibly
> not know about the August 1975 issue of Trains? I
> was just a 23 year old nobody who had the the same
> hobby interests as he did, and as of 6 months
> prior to our meeting was employed by the Santa Fe,
> just as he was. But in my mind the comparison
> ended right there!
>
> By 1980 I was able to talk to Lloyd without
> ‘shaking in my boots’. And I had been on one
> memorable railfanning trip with Lloyd & fellow KS
> Gangster John Arbuckle down in SW Kansas. (see
> http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,
> 2700294,2700294#msg-2700294> ) Even so I was still
> a little nervous about approaching Lloyd to see if
> he would let me duplicate a few of his slides. I
> guess I should have taken a clue from Bill Gibson.
> Lloyd’s generosity was equal to Bill’s when it
> came to sharing photography. Like Bill, He
> couldn’t have been more gracious about it.
>
> When the day came I drove from Emporia, KS over to
> his residence in Newton. He took me down to his
> basement and I was promptly blown away at the
> sheer volume of RR related printed matter he had
> amassed, especially RR timetables (employee &
> otherwise). And I got the definite impression if
> you asked him for some information he knew exactly
> what he had & where to go to get it in that
> amazing collection. We started looking into his
> photography without me really knowing what I was
> looking for. But when I mentioned passenger trains
> in Kansas he knew what slides to show me. As we
> progressed I remember wanting to ask him a
> thousand questions. Knowing me I probably did; and
> just as probably forgot most everything he told
> me. When it came time for me to go Lloyd threw me
> a curveball! He APOLOGIZED about his slide
> quality, telling me how quite often he only had a
> range-finder to shoot with. Now let’s break this
> down: Lloyd Stagner, a well-established legend in
> the railfan community was apologizing about the
> ‘quality’ of slides that were about to be
> leeched (copied) out of his collection. I was
> stunned.
>
> To this day the handful of slide dupes I garnered
> from Lloyd’s collection are some of the most
> prized in my entire collection. Among them is this
> Rock Island shot. I would like to honor Lloyd
> Stagner’s memory by offering up his magnificent
> photograph for Maroon Monday. I hope you enjoy it
> as much as I do!
>
> 1. CRI&P 621, nick named “Christine” leads
> train #39 at Hutchinson, KS on January 1, 1967.
> Photo by the late Mr. Lloyd Stagner.
>
> Thanks for listening!
> Lance Garrels
> santafe199

Murray Stagner has his dad's collection. That is all that I will tell you for now! wag216

Great photo by one of the great rail historians of our time. Thanks for sharing.

As for Christine #621, it roamed the RI system on secondary trains before it wound up in Chicago commuter (and Peoria Rocket) service. It made numerous trips between Memphis and Tucumcari on trains 21-22 (old 14-15, nee 111-112), which automatically put it also between Kansas City and El Reno in the passenger locomotive pool. The last time that Christine was used on 21-22 was in mid-February 1967.



valmont Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lance:
>
> I think that almost all the shots of #621 that
> I've seen were taken in Chicago area. How far did
> this unit roam? Did it ever make it to LA as did
> some Rock E's?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/14 20:44 by Arkrail.