Nostalgia & History > sp commute jobs train handling question

Lamta_jay's post a bit below shows a dynamic brake equipped gp9, the 3193, on a commuter train. This has me wondering whether commute hoggers used the dyno when they had it or just stayed with the automatic. My impression is that a lot of the commuter geeps did not have dynamics, so the engineers were accustomed to running with the air, only. Was it worth the trouble to change your "style" to use the DB when you had them? Also, the FMs had dyno, yes?

Thanks for info!

There were several of us that I know of that would use the dynamic to make station stops on locals. Especially if you had a heavy unit like a 3200 with only two gallery cars. I don't think many used the dynamics on the Geeps because they weren't that heavy and the air was usually sufficient. The 3200's had extended range taper type dynamics and the Geeps had standard range taper. Naturally the extended range was better plus the 3200's had six motors/generators as opposed to only four on the Geeps.

TheG-Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There were several of us that I know of that would
> use the dynamic to make station stops on locals.
> Especially if you had a heavy unit like a 3200
> with only two gallery cars. I don't think many
> used the dynamics on the Geeps because they
> weren't that heavy and the air was usually
> sufficient. The 3200's had extended range taper
> type dynamics and the Geeps had standard range
> taper. Naturally the extended range was better
> plus the 3200's had six motors/generators as
> opposed to only four on the Geeps.

Textbook-wise, dynos on Geeps helped slow things down until 15-16 mph, when they would fade, and the engineer could then feed in the independent brake for the stop. This helped to prevent wheel overheating, which increased with speed. Geep dynamics put out roughly half the amperage of the 3200's, so in practice, an engineer might use 20-21 lbs. of independent (above that, a high-pressure relay would knock out the dynamics) above 15 mph to make up some of the difference. This would cause a rapid build-up of heat on the wheels, which potentially could cause thermal cracks, but this wasn't much of a consideration for an engineer who needed a little extra help in making a station stop. All of this obviously went out the window with non-dyno-equipped Geeps, whose brake stand emergency notches were well-worn.

>Textbook-wise, dynos on Geeps helped slow things down until 15-16 mph, when they would fade,

This is pretty much true for all non-extended range dymaniac brakes (although Amtrak GEs won't start fading until you reach about 13 mph). With the Atk F-40s etc. the process of using blended braking (air+dynamic concurrently) has been automated.

ISTR that the F-M's couldn't use dynamics because they were either never so equipped equipped, they had been disconnected, or had been removed. This, and the steam engines which they replaced, lead to the mind-set of "The mark of a good engineer is to go like hell until the last possible second and then gas 'em." An old timer (1940s-era Coast hoghead) once told me this in the bad old days of 19-ought-73, with "gassing them" of course meaning "applying the train brakes".

The first order of Caltrain F-59s don't/didn't have dynamics, and you couldn't bail the engine from the cab cars. This caused excessive wheel heating because of the frequency of station stops and short distances between them, leading to thermal cracking. The solution was to add an electronic bail feature to the cab cars.

We used to get Caltrain F-59s on the San Joaquins occasionally, but we hated them because you couldn't exit the rear door and climb down (no rear ladders). You couldn't use the air spots we used with the F-59s because they didn't have blended braking (no dynamics at all) and you were supposed to bail because of the thermal cracking problems on the Peninsula. What I used to do was not bail the engine because on the San Joaquins, the stations are so far apart and infrequent that wheel heating was insignificant. This way I could use all my F-59 air spots (never mentioned this to management, either).

>Geep dynamics put out roughly half the amperage of the 3200's, so in practice, an engineer might use 20-21 lbs. of independent --snip--

Clarification: the total power of the dynamic brakes on a locomotive is related to the number of traction motors. The current per motor is the same between a GP and an SD type because they both use motors which have the same current rating in dynamic braking (something on the order of 750 amps). SDs types (all of them, not just the 3200s) have "better" dynamics because they had two more traction motors.

EtoinShrdlu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The first order of Caltrain F-59s

Cocktail hour must have started early today.

Actually, the thermal cracking issue on Caltrain F40's was controversial. Some claimed that it was due to "riding the jam" (independent brake) too much, others maintained that it was due to brake shoes being improperly installed, overriding the wheel edges (where the majority of cracking occurred). The bail switches on the cab cars helped with the problem, but since commute engineers tend to be "go for broke" types, the wheels always did, and shall always henceforth, run hot. Cab car bail switches also had other uses, one being if you were bogging down coming into a station, you could use it to bail off the engine brakes to stretch-out the stop. The downside was that the engine would then ram the rear car, causing the conductor to spill his coffee. On second thought, "The upside was that..."

>> The first order of Caltrain F-59s

>Cocktail hour must have started early today.
> The first order of Caltrain F-59s

The 5 and 4 on my keyboard a side by side. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

>Actually, the thermal cracking issue on Caltrain F40's was controversial. Some claimed that it was due to "riding the jam" (independent brake) too much, others maintained that it was due to brake shoes being improperly installed, overriding the wheel edges (where the majority of cracking occurred).

Sounds like a bunch of sexperts at play because the FRA dings overriding shoes.

>The bail switches on the cab cars helped with the problem, but since commute engineers tend to be "go for broke" types, the wheels always did, and shall always henceforth, run hot. Cab car bail switches also had other uses, one being if you were bogging down coming into a station, you could use it to bail off the engine brakes to stretch-out the stop. The downside was that the engine would then ram the rear car, causing the conductor to spill his coffee. On second thought, "The upside was that..."

Now, an 1930s guy once told me "In my day, you heard about it if you spilled the soup." This was my other prime principal I used this throughout my 25 year career on Atk (I modified waiting until the last second to gas 'em so it allowed for a margin of error). I was a little astounded recently to learn that I'm still well known and respected at Atk for my train handling. "This one makes it go, and this one makes it stop." If you push both to the left you can go, if you push both to the right, you stop (which had to be modified for those g-- d--- desktops).

Don't worry about the C, some of them look better duded up with [hot] coffee.

> Sounds like a bunch of sexperts at play because
> the FRA dings overriding shoes.

Awhile back, Caltrain leased some ex Metra equipment, essentially the same type/age as the SP's old galleries. We called it the hospital train because it was painted white, and I decorated the cab car pilot with a couple of duct tape red crosses to complete the effect. The darn just would not whoa! After a few curse-laden trips, I finally took a look at the brakes to find a considerable number of overriding brake shoes, some by as much as half the shoe width. Shortly thereafter, who should show up to ride with me but the FRA lady. I asked her to inspect the brakes, and she subsequently pronounced them OK. So much for the FRA. I kept my mouth shut, because one does not make an FRA inspector look like a fool. Later, when I put the train away in San Jose, I told the roundhouse foreman about the overriding shoes and warned him that the FRA was snooping around. The next day, he said that he had found about 2/3 of the shoes to be overriding, and had the carmen fix the problem. The brakes still were miserable, but at least good enough to employ the "plug 'em when you see the whites of their eyes" method at platforms.

> I was a little astounded
> recently to learn that I'm still well known and
> respected at Atk for my train handling. "This one
> makes it go, and this one makes it stop."

My only lasting *positive* legacy was the fostering of the Hawaiian shirt as the standard uniform of Caltrain engineers, although I'm sure that by now the present Herzog outfit and the JPB staff must have gotten together to require baby-blue jump suits. >> Am I right, Viper?

> Don't worry about the C, some of them look better
> duded up with coffee.

As my career progressed, I noticed conductors gravitating more and more from the rear car to the fireman's seat in the cab car. I have long suspected that they did this to protect themselves from my train handling. I was pretty good at deadheading, though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/14 13:39 by hogheaded.