Nostalgia & History > a flash of Red & Silver in Wichita

Here are 3 images of a very recognizable icon: a Santa Fe Warbonnet F in Wichita, KS. The mystery lies in what train this actually is. These flash-lit exposures were taken by Jim Watson, but in conversation with him he has very little recollection of the circumstances. The visual evidence points directly to this being a passenger train. It’s just not feasible that Warbonnet-led freight train would stop in the same exact platform spot that a passenger train would. Jim lived and worked in Wichita in the late 1960s, into the very early 1970s. But we’re pretty sure this can’t be an Amtrak train. A conversation with passenger guru John Arbuckle [“The Chief Way”] reveals that the 16 Class F-3s were not among the group of Santa Fe Fs that were leased to Amtrak in the early days.

So a semi-educated guess is that this is Santa Fe train #16, the “Texas Chief”. The dark of the night would support this as #16 usually came calling at Wichita Union Terminal around 9:30 PM. And it’s the wrong time of the day for the likelihood of this being train #2, the “San Francisco Chief”. Besides, nos #1 & #2 usually ran with Warbonnet FP-45s. Santa Fe’s U-28 & U-30CGs were certainly common power for the Texas Chief, but then so were F-units, according to John.

All of our conclusions are open to more educated speculation: Evan? Bob? Or anyone else feel free to take a stab! If not, just enjoy some images of one of the most famous RR noses in the world…

1. AT&SF 19C is just arriving northbound [TT east] on the passenger platform at Union Terminal. No details from the rest of the train can be seen.

2. & 3. The train is now stopped with headlight extinguished, which would seem to indicate a passenger train has just made a station stop. A friendly hogger is mugging for Jim’s camera in image #3!
Three 2¼ square Ektachrome transparencies by James W. Watson; circa 1969? (just a guess!)

Thanks for playing!
Lance Garrels (santafe199)
Jim Watson (UP6900)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/22 21:13 by santafe199.

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Excellent photos and thanks for posting.

I support your theory re: No 16. 

I've been asked and have volunteered to identify many AT&SF photos. I think it is important not to over analyze a "mystery photo". For instance, you can say "that this train ran with this power" or "Amtrak didn't lease this class" and be correct 80-90% of the time. However, in the late-1960s, Santa Fe was anything but 100% consistent with motive power assignments. For example, my July 1968 trip on No 1 had FP45s but published photos from that same month show the train running with F's.

I guess the moral from this is something we all know - label or log your photos. I'm guilty of this big-time.

Bob

I'll go for #16, or maybe #15.  (I don't have and can't recall the schedule
of the "Texas Chief.)  

About the use of FP45's on #1:  There are photos of the big F's on the 
"San Francisco Chief."  And there are photos of F3/7's on the "Super/El Cp"
after the FP45's had been delivered.  Remember there were only nine of
them, four pairs and a spare, so having them consistently in the same
service every day would be difficult.  

Nick Tharalson,
Marion, IA 

As a kid, I remember they were using Alco PA's on #'s 1 & 2 through Topeka in the mid-late 60's

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Lance,

Here's a listing of the engines on Trains 15 - 16 between Dec. 27, 1969 and Jan. 4, 1970 on which I was the fireman.  I was with Engr JS Haggard on all the trips between Emporia - Ark City except had Engr RL Nail on 1-2-70:

12.27.69, Train 15:  40L - 331A - 335B - 306A
12.27.69, Train 16:  403 - 353 - 350
12.29.69, Train 15:  352 - 351 - 402
12.29.69, Train 16:  405 - 354 - 358
12.31.69, Train 15:  356 - 350 - 358
12.31.69, Train 16:  36C - 48A - 340L - 308B - 43B
01.02.70, Train 15:  36C - 48A - 19C - 40A - 300A
01.02.70, Train 16:  353 - 352 - 351
01.04.70, Train 15:  355 - 356 - 405
01.04.70, Train 16:  355 - 405 - 356

They would operate additional sections of passenger trains on the transcon during the holiday season so probably had to resurrect some of the older units temporarily.

I see trains 15 and 16 on 1-4-70 had engine 355 as the leader on both.  It had to have been turned somewhere between Ark City and Ft Worth and switched around the other two units, who knows why.

If I had to guess who the engineer is in your 3rd picture I would guess Alan Mount.  He was the BLE local chairman in this era and started wearing dress shirts and ties.  Said he wanted to improve the image of the engineers.  The engineer in the picture appears to be wearing a dress shirt.  By the way, his attire did not catch on.

Mark Cole
Temple, TX   



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/15 16:52 by KskidinTx.

KskidinTx Wrote:
> Here's a listing ...I was with Engr JS Haggard...
> If I had to guess... the engineer ... I would guess Alan Mount...
Here's a shot of Jack [Haggard] I took at Arkansas City. I worked as the flagman with Jack on 2 extra "stub" round trips of the former nos #15 & #16 between Newton & Arkansas City. These were abbreviated trains that ran for just a few days off a connection with #3 at Newton for the trip south, and the return trip north connected with #4 back at Newton. I know Jack was one of the regular engineers on the Lone Star, but I don't know what kind of arrangement was in place for him to keep working the stub trains after the Lone Star was 'officially' abolished. Later on I worked a freight roundtrip with Jack. He acted like he was completely lost, but he happened to have a fireman who [IIRC] did all the running both ways. (no surprise there... ;^) I believe he retired shortly after the Lone Star came off.

> The engineer in the picture appears to be wearing a dress shirt. By the way, his attire did not catch on...
I think you're right, it does look like Alan. Although the eyeglasses in both images do present a startling coincidental resemblance! Jack has a rounder head & face where Alan's face & chin are more angular. I clearly remember Alan, but I can't recall ever working with him. Speaking of attire: I'd say we were ALL lucky that engineer Don Stair's style of dress didn't catch on. Here's a shot of Don in one of his more calm, austere moments. But most of the time he was totally fearless when it came to clashing clothing. He might show to work up with a paisley shirt & plaid slacks. Every other hysterical combination you can think was probably worn by Don at one time or another! And his color coordination often came from the "Rodney Dangerfield/Caddyshack school of fine apparel"!!! He was a dandy alright, but sometimes I suspected he dressed that way on purpose...

Lance



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/15 18:58 by santafe199.

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You can't see it, but I would bet Don is wearing either his red socks, or the green pair. They always went well with the plaid pants.

It's somewhat strange you would post these 2 pictures.  As to Haggard, he gave me my first chance to operate a train.  For some unknown reason he bumped onto the Abilene - Osborne local and I was the fireman.  No one could figure out why with all his seniority he would come to a little out of the way local.  He had indigestion real bad and always carried a box of baking soda with him and would take several handfuls at times.  After we departed Salina late one night his stomach was really bothering him so he put me in the driver's seat.  I told him I didn't know anything about operating an engine.  He said I'd do okay.  I asked what I should do to control our speed.  "Just set about 5 lbs. of air".  I didn't even know just how to do that or what gauge hand to watch, but we finally made it to Lincoln, KS.  He then instructed me to go with him.  "Where to" I asked.  We're going to the caboose.  Well, who is going to run the train?  The conductor and rear brakman are coming up to take the train on to Osborne.  Didn't make much sense to me but I was just a new fireman.  Finally we pulled into Osborne.

In the spring of '64 I was fireing regularly for Don Stair on the same Abilene - Osborne local.  He let me run half the time or more and really helped me learn how to handle a train.  Was working with him when I got severed in May '64.  I will always be grateful to him for his help.

As to the dark rimmed glasses, that was the norm back then.  Just ask Walter Cronkite.  I see both Haggard and Stair have them on and am pretty sure Mount wore them also.

Say, just who do you not have a picture of?  It's great you did take the ones you took.  I started taking pictures of my engineers once but quit for some unknown reason.  If I could only do it over!

Mark Cole  

When I was firing at Emporia, I worked the freight pool, most of the time, but would occasionally get jumped up (or down) for Amtrak. Every time I caught 15 & 16, it was with Swede Cornealson. Haggard was working the other side, and his regular fireman stayed marked up. I did work a round trip with him just one time though. He was a funny guy to work with, but several people had warned me to make sure I got on his trip ticket, or better yet, fill out my own ticket and mark it "Possible duplicate". For some reason, he would sometimes either fail to drop it in the box when he tied up, or simply not even fill one out at all. I also remember him telling me he was part Indian, and that he's read EVERY book in the library at Ark City over the years. I worked with Stair many times in freight service. It didn't take much to wipe that smile off his face either. All it took was something other than green to get him started. He would whine out loud & slow..."Dirty........Rotten......No good........Stinking......Mickey Mouse......S...O...B... over & over every trip. It became his trade mark.

KskidinTx Wrote:
> As to the dark rimmed glasses...Just ask Walter Cronkite...
I never thought of it that way, but you're absolutely right! We all grew up with "Uncle Walter" on our fuzzy B/W TVs bringing us the suppertime news. I suppose most American males in that generation who had to wear glasses wanted to emulate him. (chuckling) He was a fashion trend-setter and didn't know it... ;^)

> Say, just who do you not have a picture of?
I missed SO MANY of the guys I would like to have shot portraits of! I think the one I regret the most is Jack Richardson. Ol' "Scrap Iron" Jack just plain scared me. When I approached him about taking his shot sitting in "the seat" he just barked out an energetic & terrifying NO. Under his breath I could hear him mutter: "I ain't very proud of this job..." (I don't think he was very fond of railfans, either.) It took me some months & some sheer bravado, but I snuck a shot of him one day, sorta from behind. We were stuck in the hole at Matfield and he has leaned back deep in thought, just staring out his window. A few years later I was the head brakeman with him on an eastbound train at Florence. We were stopped behind another train. It was summertime and where we were stopped we had a grandstand view of some Florence community function. It looked like a huge picnic and we could see & hear the "town band" playing music. I leaned out my window and began waving my arms, like I was the orchestra leader. I heard a HUGE guffaw of laughter from behind me. I turned and he was looking at me directly with a twinkle in his eye & a huge grin on his face. So far as I can remember it was the only time he ever looked directly at me eye to eye. I sensed I would have had the chance to go ahead and shoot his portrait, but I chickened out...

Lance



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/15 09:20 by santafe199.

Here is a photo with Jack Richardson at an engineer retirement function. He's 2nd from the right. L to R. LC Mallon, HF Stevenson, DC Coates, WV Mayer, Jack, and CL Lucy, they all took one of the buy-outs. (I think Stevenson is still living). I was a little intimidated by Richardson too at first, he was moody, but eventually we became good friends. One time he bought some big Goodyear tractor tires at Ark City, and had the service truck come down to the roundhouse and load them on the lead unit. They were big, so they took the hoist and dropped them down between the hood and the hand rails on each side of the engine. He thought they would go in the yard and to the house at Emporia, but it went mainline instead. The train was delayed until they could get help removing the big tires in front of the depot.

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Dennis,

Thanks for sharing the photo and the story.  That's what I like about TO, the different posts joggle my memory about experiences I've had, some good and some not so good.
The tractor tires on the locomotive reminds me of an experience I had and will be posting on Railroaders' Nostalgia one of these days.

Mark

I can remember hearing that tire story from somebody... Wow, what a neat shot. I have 3 of the 6 in my slide collection. I missed Doug Coates, Bill Mayer & Carl Lucy. Bill is another one I regret not shooting a pic of. After a couple of 'gruff round trips, we seemed to hit it off. But only AFTER I learned I could give him a hard time right back... ;^)

Lance