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Date: 10/17/20 17:28
Train Order Question
Author: train1275

Back in the day could a dispatcher abolish yard limits with a train order and if so, what would be the reason or situation.

Somewhere back in the cobwebs of my memory I seem to recall hearing of that.

My career started just as 19's were goiing away and I never did master the nuances of such things.



Date: 10/17/20 17:40
Re: Train Order Question
Author: pdt

Im no authority here, but in addition to amending the ETT thru GO's  on he bulletin board, I believe you could amend the ETT thru train order, until a GO was published..and eventually a new ETT published.

For instance, suppose the signal system was decomissioned along a branch line.   It would probably take a day or 2 to have it published on a bulletin board. So trains operating on the line could be notified via train order that the signal system was OOS.
Ya gotta remember this is before there were any radios.  Bulletins and train orders was the only communication between dispatchers/towers and the train crew.
 



Date: 10/17/20 18:23
Re: Train Order Question
Author: wp1801

I think that yard limits were established though union agreements.



Date: 10/17/20 18:39
Re: Train Order Question
Author: goneon66

i know nothing about train orders but per gcor 15.6 "a track bulletin may be used to issue, change, or cancel general orders, special instructions, or rules."

if you want most anything on the railroad issued, changed, or canceled immediately, you can do it with a track bulletin............

66



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/20 18:47 by goneon66.



Date: 10/17/20 18:48
Re: Train Order Question
Author: TAW

wp1801 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think that yard limits were established though
> union agreements.

Yard limits for pay and yard limits for operation are two diffeent things.

TAW



Date: 10/17/20 18:55
Re: Train Order Question
Author: Chico43

wp1801 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think that yard limits were established though
> union agreements.

Don't confuse Yard Limits with Switching Limits.



Date: 10/17/20 19:00
Re: Train Order Question
Author: TAW

train1275 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Back in the day could a dispatcher abolish yard
> limits with a train order and if so, what would be
> the reason or situation.

Yes. The reason: The Superintendent decided he didn't want that part of the railroad to be Yard Limits. A train order could modify the timetable or the rule book just like a bulletin or general order, just more immediately. Ultimately, a permanent change would be issued as a bulletin or general order and the train order would be taken down.

Great care would need to be taken to ensure that there were no engines or M of W in the limits when taken down by train order. That isn't as simple as it sounds, but it can be done. Gandys don't get train orders, so before the train order was issued, the Roadmaster, Signal Supervisor, and B&B supevisor would need to be notified. They would need to notify the dispatcher that all affected employees were notified. The Superintendent should have notified his affected direct reports, the Asst. Supt. and Division Engineer before instructing the dispatcher.

The other way around is much easier, establishing temporary Yard Limits. Only trains and engines within the limits would need notification since no yard limits is more restrictive for M of W than yard limits.

Temporarily abolishing Yard Limits for convenience of some sort would just not happen. It's way too involved to be convenient.

TAW



Date: 10/17/20 19:48
Re: Train Order Question
Author: pdt

FWIW...GCOR didnt exist till 1985, and i believe was in responce to the use of radio, which was obviously not mentioned in earlier operating rule systems.
I read (IDK if its true) that GCOR 2nd edition (1989) deleted all references to timetable and train orders.

I was brought up on NORAC, and PRR operating rules.  Ive never liked GCOR.   Diverging Clear is not a signal indication, its Clear Medium. LOL.  Someone here will be laughing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/20 19:59 by pdt.



Date: 10/17/20 19:54
Re: Train Order Question
Author: callum_out

Passing a red intermediate just seems wrong as well.

Out 



Date: 10/17/20 20:04
Re: Train Order Question
Author: pdt

callum_out Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Passing a red intermediate just seems wrong as
> well.
>
> Out 
Its been "stop and proceed" since the beginning of time.  Who thinks they can just change it?  The only exception was if the signal had a G (grade) plate attached.        We used to give 2 long blasts before proceeding too.

And another thing...We have spring switches out here that are protected by high signals with no number plates.  They should be "stop and stay" as we used to say.  Yet ive seen crews go thru them at restricted speed, as if they were intermediates.   Theorhetically, they are home signals that will display stop indication if the spring switch hangs up.  Should the crew have called the Disp to be flagged by, or is there an exception in the UP ETT for signals without number boards protecting a spring switch?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/20 20:18 by pdt.



Date: 10/17/20 20:07
Re: Train Order Question
Author: WrongMain

callum_out Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Passing a red intermediate just seems wrong as
> well.
>
> Out 

Hah, passing a red intermediate isn't so bad, not as bad as passing a red absolute without permission.  As a retired dispatcher who worked with both GCOR and NORAC, give me GCOR any day...



Date: 10/17/20 20:32
Re: Train Order Question
Author: Railbaron

I had no issues switching from my old SP rule book to GCOR. Of course there were many modifications to the GCOR in the system special instructions so at first the changes weren't that drastic. 

As far as passing a red intermediate signal (used to be "Stop and Proceed") I had no problem with that at all, and in fact preferred it. The big issue is that crews understood what "restricted speed" was and complied with it. Of course unfortunately that is still an issue as there are too many collisions that shouldn't happen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/20 20:34 by Railbaron.



Date: 10/17/20 21:42
Re: Train Order Question
Author: pdt

Well of course its a lot easier to slow to restricted speed, than to come to a full stop and then proceed. Especially wih heavier trains these days.



Date: 10/17/20 23:45
Re: Train Order Question
Author: John

pdt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Im no authority here, but in addition to amending
> the ETT thru GO's  on he bulletin board, I
> believe you could amend the ETT thru train order,
> until a GO was published..and eventually a new ETT
> published.
>
> For instance, suppose the signal system was
> decomissioned along a branch line.   It would
> probably take a day or 2 to have it published on a
> bulletin board. So trains operating on the line
> could be notified via train order that the signal
> system was OOS.

At one time the Santa Fe used a red over yellow indication on Cajon as its grade signal, in lieu of a G plate.  Normally, only the upper unit was lit.  When a train passed a signal inidicating green or yellow the upper unit became red and the lower unit lit up yellow.



Date: 10/18/20 15:01
Re: Train Order Question
Author: starsandbars

Dispatcher could not void a yard limits that could only be done thru a grneral Order  on the UP 



Date: 10/18/20 15:07
Re: Train Order Question
Author: MyfordBrowning

In the pre 1948 rule book red over yellow indicated restricted speed. With the 1948 book of rule, there were two signal systems shown: system one the old system and system two for the newer system. system one was phased out until it was gone in the early 60s. The Santa Fe tried a pass a red automatic signal at restricted speed showing a 'P' plate for a short while in I think in the 70s and then went back to stop and go. I guess they were not sure the trains would have the speed down tho restricted speed when they passed the signal



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