Nostalgia & History > PRR Train Order Help

Part of my ever growing collection of Train Orders of which I recently obtained a few PRR Form 19's. With some searching, I usually can pretty much figure where the Location of where the TO was written at. Here is one I am having a challenge with.  It is addressed to "C&E All Northward Trains  and is basically a speed restriction between MP 20 and 27 at the station/tower of "HO". Does anyone on here perhaps know where HO is located at? With the MP's being so low it makes sense that it may be on a Branch Line or Secondary. One place that was given as a possibilty was Horseheads NY, but I am not sure. In looking thru some ETT's from the PRR/PC I have not had any luck confirming Horseheads Ny as the location.  Any thought as to where this one was written at/  Thanks for any help.  Ben

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This is a John Fuller photo taken at Hobart, Indiana, listed on the North American Interlocking site. But I  don't know if the PRR ran here.

Edit: The PRR did run through Hobart as did the NKP. Perhaps this is it. But maybe not. I understand the NKP and EJ&E crossed at HO and the PRR and EJ&E crossed at Bart tower.

Hopefully, someone here will know for sure.

Victor Baird



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/25 14:10 by wabash2800.

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Ben 

HO Tower was where the PRR split off after running on the Erie RR through Elmira to Horseheads, NY. It appears the Erie had trackage rights north on PRR from HO Tower.
It seems this was an Erie RR tower and that the mileage started at 0.00 on this branch.
I'm still digging and hopefully find more.

Gonut
 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/25 14:16 by Gonut1.

wabash2800 Wrote:
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> This is a John Fuller photo taken at Hobart,
> Indiana, listed on the North American Interlocking
> site. But I  don't know if the PRR ran here.
>
> Edit: The PRR did run through Hobart as did the
> NKP. Perhaps this is it. But maybe not. I
> understand the NKP and EJ&E crossed at HO and the
> PRR and EJ&E crossed at Bart tower.
>
> Hopefully, someone here will know for sure.
>
> Victor Baird

Victor, Many thanks. I do not believe this is it. The Pennsy did run thru Hobart In. on the PFW&C. Hobart was on the ML and the MP's do not match up. Didn't seem to be a branch located here either off the ML which would explain the low MP numbers.  Really appreciate your reply by all means, but, like you, I will see if others chime in with your replay and go from there.  Thanks, Ben

Gonut1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ben 
>
> HO Tower was where the PRR split off after running
> on the Erie RR through Horseheads, NY. It appears
> the Erie had trackage rights north on PRR from HO
> Tower.
> It seems this was an Erie RR tower and that the
> mileage started at 0.00 on this branch.
> I'm still digging and hopefully find more.
>
> Gonut
>  

Go, You are the second one I have heard from with the answer of Horseheads NY, so you may have hit the head of the nail. Have to get some ETT's out again and check. In the group that this one came out of was one written on a NYC Form 19 at Lawerenceville Ny giving authority to an ERIE Eng 425 from Lawerenceville Ny to WK but written less than a month later in same year, so it might very well be here. This was it seems where the Watkins Glen Secondary began to head north.. In looking at a map of the Finger Lakes RR and abandonments they did thru the years, PRR/PC ran north from Horseheads to Watkins Glen. So i do believe you are correct on where this one is at. Many thanks GO, appreciate it.  Ben

Horseheads sounds a good bet.

MP 20 - 27 was north of Watkins Glen.

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I'd like to submit further evidence showing this train order being issued for the Elmira Branch; see the attached snippet of Northern Region ETT #2 effective October 28, 1956. This ETT can be viewed via the PRR railfan dot net website.

EDIT: link to ETT index: http://prr.railfan.net/documents/EmployeeTimetables_byDateAdded.html

Another edit: See photo #7 in this thread for a photo of HO tower by Roadjob: https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,4952571,4952718#msg-4952718  That's the Pennsy's Elmira Branch diverging rightward towards Horseheads.

Matthew



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/25 16:06 by Roadmaster.

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I qualified it. Im glad we got that right location in New York.

Victor

ns2557 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> Victor, Many thanks. I do not believe this is it.
> The Pennsy did run thru Hobart In. on the PFW&C.
> Hobart was on the ML and the MP's do not match up.
> Didn't seem to be a branch located here either off
> the ML which would explain the low MP numbers. 
> Really appreciate your reply by all means, but,
> like you, I will see if others chime in with your
> replay and go from there.  Thanks, Ben

Good work Roadmaster!
 
I just couldn’t pin down the Elmira Branch Timetble -Thanks.

A little more - This is from an Erie RR Timetable of PRR First Class Passenger Trains From Southport (where PRR trains on the Northern Central) from Williamsport, PA entered onto the Erie Mainline. They left the Mainline onto what Erie called the Watkins Branch at Horseheads (HO Tower) (Actually the PRR Northern Central) and then ran to Watkins Glen, NY, terminating at Coal Port( a yard and engine facilities?) on Lake Seneca.
I cannot find any reference of the Erie using the branch.
What I cannot find is a hard reference as to where MP 0.00 was. Looking at maps it appears that point was the junction at Southport and that the Horseheads (Recon. Plant), where the Cortland Branch of the Lehigh Valley connected.
The Northern Central continued north from Coal Point to the Sodus Point Coal Dock on Lake Ontario, one of the last stands for PRR steam, the Hippos 2-10-0? Double headed the coal trains. This was all abandoned due to damage to the ROW in Pennsylvania due to Hurricane Agnus.
 
So the slow orders would start north of Montour Falls and continue several miles north of Coal Point.
WATKINS BRANCHMiles
from
Elmira,
N. Y. Station No.-Elmira2737Horseheads (Recon. Plant)228010Pine Valley228313Millport228614Croton228718Montour Falls229122Watkins Glen229523Coal Point2296 
Gonut
 

And E.P. A. was E. P. Adams the PRR Lake Division Supt. - as per the referenced PRR ETT linked above.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/25 16:33 by train1275.

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Arghh! Sometimes the cut and paste into T.O. isn't very good.
Whatever, here is the Erie RR timetable description of what I guess was a trackage rights "thing" their Watkins Branch.
Go

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As usual, TO members for the WIN!

Thanks to all you fine gents with the answer. Really appreciate it. The Track Chart is great as well in narrowing it down. Another fine reason I really enjoy TO. Someone, somewhere always seems to know. Thanks again everyone. Ben