Nostalgia & History > Question for LA area railfans

I lived in the Sylmar area back in the 60's and 70's. I recall a residence that had a very old Southern Pacific engine and tender as well as a passenger coach, caboose, perhaps other rolling stock. Reading the map, I believe they were around the area of Glenoaks and Hubbard streets. What was their story, their fate? Such a long time ago, was it real?

notarb Wrote:
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> I lived in the Sylmar area back in the 60's and
> 70's. I recall a residence that had a very old
> Southern Pacific engine and tender as well as a
> passenger coach, caboose, perhaps other rolling
> stock. Reading the map, I believe they were
> around the area of Glenoaks and Hubbard streets.
> What was their story, their fate? Such a long
> time ago, was it real?

This was the site of a construction contractor who had purchased Southerm Pacific 4-6-0 No. 2248. I don't know what he intended to do with it, but was rolled over on its side in the 1971 Sylmar earthquake. I can't vouch for the rolling stock, but the engine went to Fort Worth, Texas where it was restored, and is the mainstay for the Tarantula Train. See their site.

http://www.grapevinesteamrailroad.com/history.asp

Cheers,
Africansteam

P.S. Their website answers my questions as to who the contractor was, and what he intended to
do with the loco.

Africansteam: Thanks so much. I was in Sylmar during the earthquake, and got a photo of that engine on it's side. Unfortunately it was at the beginning of a roll, and I only got half a photo.

Notarb. As my mother was fond of saying. "Half a picture is better than no picture at all - which is exactly what I got!

Cheers,
Africansteam

The locomotive belonged to Charles T Brown, a pipeline contractor that did much of the drainage work on the Golden State Freeway. He lived in a home on the east side of the same property. Behind his home he had a V&T passenger car that contained a model railroad. As a high school kid I had the opportunity to work on the model railroad from time to time. I believe he also had a caboose behind his home or perhaps with the locomotive.

This same person was also a part owner of the original Griffith Park 1/5 scale miniature railroad located at the Los Feliz entrance to Griffith Park. I worked as a ticket seller and engineer on the train during my high school years. When the Golden State Freeway was constructed, the original figure 8 layout had to be removed for the freeway and was replaced with a dog bone shaped layout. Mr. Brown spent much of his time visiting with us when we were relocating the railroad and became so interested he purchased a second 4-car train set (4 passenger cars plus an F7 A&B unit) , and was responsible for many of the improvements on the railroad, and became a partner with the original owner Samuel Bornstein of Swope Park in Kansas City, where there was a similar miniature railroad. On busy weekends we rain the original 6-car train set, plus the 4-car train set owned by Mr. Brown. Occasionally we ran a single 10-car train. The railroad had a working block signal system and a miniature CTC system, financed by Mr. Brown. Mr. Brown also constructed a 1/5 scale miniature caboose and two flatcars.

About 1960, the City of Los Angeles decided to put the miniature railroad franchise up for bid, and the railroad was lost to a bidder that promised the city a greater percentage of the gross. Mr. Brown removed all the improvements and restored the park as if the railroad had not existed. The winning bidder essentially had to built a new railroad from the ground up and that railroad exists to this day.

The original 6-car train owned by Mr. Bornstein was purchased by the owner of Panella Trucking of Stockton. He restored the train to like new condition and it still runs on his private 1/5 scale railroad along with several similar trains. Mr. Brown took his 4-car train set to his desert home east of Lancaster, CA where he built another 1/5 scale railroad around the perimeter of his property. His home sat atop a small hill and the train ran through a tunnel under the house, with an elevator to the house. His home is easily identified since it’s the only home in the desert surrounded by street lamps from the original Cahuenga Pass section of the Hollywood freeway. These were the street lamps that existed when the PE ran down the center divider. When Mr. Brown passed away a few years ago, I heard his widow gave the train away but I don’t know to whom.

Your question about the locomotive on Glenoaks Blvd in Sylmar brought back many memories.

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Thanks for posting the info about the Griffith Park railroad. Rode it countless times. Although I vaguely remember it being changed because of the freeway construction, I didn't know there were actually two versions of it.

On another topic, would you happen to know the disposition of the minature railroad that used to be at Santa Claus, California (between Carpenteria and Montecito)? Back in the '60's, it had an SP Daylight-painted train consisting of an Alco PA and three cars.

SPkid Wrote:
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"Mr. Brown spent much of his time visiting with us when we were relocating the railroad and became so interested he purchased a second 4-car train set (4 passenger cars plus an F7 A&B unit) , and was responsible for many of the improvements on the railroad, and became a partner with the original owner Samuel Bornstein of Swope Park in Kansas City, where there was a similar miniature railroad. On busy weekends we rain the original 6-car train set, plus the 4-car train set owned by Mr. Brown. Occasionally we ran a single 10-car train. The railroad had a working block signal system and a miniature CTC system, financed by Mr. Brown. Mr. Brown also constructed a 1/5 scale miniature caboose and two flatcars."


SPkid. Many thanks for your post. You cleared up the mystery of Swope Railways, Inc. of Kansas City, as seen on the billboard in the background of this shot of yours truly, and the Griffith Park train. Recently, I had done some on-line research in the hopes of learning more about the Swope company, but was unsuccessful. I really appreciate your information.

Africansteam

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If half a photo is indeed better than none, here it is. The afore mentioned engine. Sylmar, Feb. 1971

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notarb Wrote:
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> If half a photo is indeed better than none, here
> it is. The afore mentioned engine. Sylmar, Feb.
> 1971

Wow! Thanks for posting, Notarb.

Africansteam

A little late to chime in here, but a few additions;

The train in the photo (#501) was among the first "G-16" model ('G' for gas, '16' for 16" gauge) streamliners built by Paul Allen Sturtevant ie the Miniature Train & Railroad Company of Elmhurst, IL and is indeed now owned by the private 'Panella Pacific', along with several other examples of equipment from the MT&RC and the Allan Herschell Company (its successor), as well as two steam locomotives. One was the first built by the Sandley Light Railway Works of Wisconsin. G-16s were a mass-produced model and are extremely common in amusement park service even today.

Sam Bornstein's Swope Railways indeed took its name from Swope Park in Kansas City (some G-16s still run there on the 'Kansas City Northern'). They also operated the G-16 concession at Balboa Park in San Diego, which still operates.

There's still a 16" setup in Griffith Park (loop around 'Travel Town') which operates some steam profile locomotives and a diesel switcher. The Daylight coaches are left over from Gene Autry's "Melody Ranch Special", one of two 16" steam locomotives built by George Reddington and Albert Blecha (the other was in the Bay Area, known as the "Oakland Acorn" and ran at Peralta Playground). Both of these locomotives are restored and operating at a Wisconsin miniature railroad and adjacent amusement park. Chet Peterson of Railroad Supply I believe built the "All-American Streamliner" trains (one of which remains) to operate on the unusual 18-1/2" gauge Griffith Park Southern through another portion of the park.

Here's another example of a (later model) "G-16" in operation at the Railroad Museum of Long Island in Riverhead, NY. Originally built to operate at the World's Fair in Flushing, NY for 1964-65, its owner (Grumman) modified it with a larger engine and used it for employees' families at company picnics at their Calverton, NY facility. The "hunchback" look is not typical, but when built (and restoration fully complete), it will look like the rest.

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Lastly, here's a line-up of three restored G-16s at the backyard (more or less) Peconic County Miniature Railroad in Greenport, NY. Owner Frank Field operates his railroad on Sundays during the summer months for the public.

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Thanks for the great information and photos of the Griffith park train. I have had the chance to visit Mr.Panella's Railroad. He has the best collection of Miniature Train company equipment in the country. Bob "Smitty" Smith has done an outstanding job restoring these trains to better than new condition.
CGW116-A

For those interested, I'm guessing it might be included on the 2005 Grand Scales tour as it was 5 years ago in the West.

OnTrackEd Wrote:
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> A little late to chime in here, but a few
> additions;

It's never too late. Great stuff! Thanks for the pics of the other survivors.

Africansteam

When I responded to the posting by notarb and associated the owner of the steam engine in Sylmar with the Griffith Park Railroad, I had no idea the off-topic subject would generate so much interest. I have enjoyed the responses. I was familiar with the information in some of the postings, but I also learned many new things.

I especially enjoyed the picture of the little person standing by engine. I don’t recognize the sign in the background so I suspect it was from the days before I was involved and probably about the same age as the person in the picture.

I have two more pages from the pamphlet we handed out to interested customers which I’m posting due to the unusual interest.

Thanks for all the postings.

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The last picture. This picture shows the caboose and flat cars built by Mr. Brown. This train was used to take kids to the "hobo jungle" for birthday parties. The kids rode on the flat cars with sides about 8" high.

Also shown on the sign is the track plan and replaca of the CTC board, complete with indicator lights showing the signal indications and train position.

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SPkid Wrote:
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> I especially enjoyed the picture of the little
> person standing by engine. I don’t recognize the
> sign in the background so I suspect it was from
> the days before I was involved and probably about
> the same age as the person in the picture.

That's me. about 1948/49. Thanks, for all of your postings!

Cheers,
Africansteam

>>On another topic, would you happen to know the disposition of the minature railroad that used to be at Santa >>Claus, California (between Carpenteria and Montecito)? Back in the '60's, it had an SP Daylight-painted train >>consisting of an Alco PA and three cars.

This train is credited to a fellow in Oakland by the name of Ray Maker. His stuff has been driving miniature railway researchers such as myself insane trying to piece together all the clues!

Maker built several miniature trains over the years, the most common we've seen (researchers) were 16" and 18" gauge streamliners such as this. Another was up at Erich Thomsen's shop in Oakland (he moved it up to Tilden Park much later) and sold to a pumpkin farm in Half Moon Bay, which is still there and running every October in some form. The 2' "Aerotrain" at the Oakland Zoo, which was replaced 10-15 years ago, was also credited to him. He also built more than one steam profile locomotive, apparently one along the lines of an SP GS-class was stored by the City of Half Moon Bay until fairly recently, and another still in storage in Hayward (ran at a Kennedy Park up there). A pumpkin patch up in Oregon still has a Maker train, and there's another in an Oakland-area backyard.

As for the train at "Santa's Kitchen", it still survives; all but one of the cars. It was sold fairly recently to another owner who apparently plans to use it at some sort of animal rescue park attraction or something. It's still in the Santa Barbara Area.

Here's an old postcard of it.

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Here's the ad for the train I mentioned (which is now in Half Moon Bay; locomotive stored and a replacement built) courtesy of Rick Mugele. I'm sure there's much more to be found on this Ray Maker character in Oakland-area libraries. I understand his involvement with drive-in installations, monorails, and amateur films made him appear in a few periodicals over the years.

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