European Railroad Discussion > Is this for real?

Over the past two years a number of solutions to The Pacer Problem have been circulating in railway circles over here. Pacers are four wheel railbuses which were built in the 1980s, using the Leyland National bus body as a template and which continue to provide local services across a huge swathe of the north of England and in South Wales. They are extremely utilitarian, not surprisingly and are now quite obviously antediluvian. But there is no money around say national politicians to replace them. Many people in the north of England think this is political, after all money is being found for new trains across the SE and in London, but there aren't many votes for the present right of centre government to be had in places like West Yorkshire or Merseyside and so Northern Rail, the franchise most impacted has to continue to make do with these 1980s throwbacks.

Enter vivarail http://www.vivarail.co.uk/

Their plan, which has been doing the rounds for a couple of years is to take redundant London Underground D stock and convert them into DEMUs, slinging a Ford diesel engine, normally associated with light trucks (the Transit) under the frame, driving a generator to provide power to the existing traction motors. Up to now this has been dismissed as a bit of a joke but the people involved in Vivarail - former Chiltern CEO Adrian Shooter and Railroad development Corporation's Henry Posner III are anything but airheads. There are a number of obstacles - technical and regulatory - to overcome but finance appears to be in place to acquire the trains, the D stock is being superceded by LU's new S stock universal train for the sub-surface lines, so it may be a question of watch this space. We should know more as 2015 unfolds. For those wondering what all this looks like, this is a Pacer (class 142) and this is D stock

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If Vivarail would produce a pair of these at their own expense for demonstration, perhaps that would lead to a purchase.

We, in the north of the UK, can only hope it is not for real. The company Vivarail seems an oddball setup, quoted as having capital of £100. So where did Shooter get all the money from for this D78 stock. A recent visit to Leeds by Nick Clegg, he stated the Paces were 'not fit for purpose'. Only yesterday, ceefax were quoting the autumn government statement, that all Pacers would be replaced by new and modern stock! There will be money in the budget. That now leaves us with the other major issue - just what new diesel stock is actually available. Chris UK.

My understanding is that it is very much for real - Vivarail have already purchased over 100 D stock cars from LU. The real problem is the politics - as you point out the present government doesn't rate local transport needs in the north very highly.

Oh well, come the revolution...!

There's a long thread in the newsgroup uk.railway about this entitled "75 "new" 4-car D-Train DEMUs"

A link attached to the first message in the thread give some background on the project -

http://live.ezezine.com/ezine/archives/759/759-2014.11.24.04.00.archive.html

While I live in the US and work for a major freight railroad, I do take an interest in railways around the world. Reading the newsgroup uk.railway keeps me up on events in the uK.

55002 Wrote:
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> Only yesterday, ceefax were quoting the
> autumn government statement, that all Pacers would
> be replaced by new and modern stock!

I don't think the statement actually said 'new' did it, it said 'replace Pacer carriages with modern trains". So who knows? From experience D stock is perfectly acceptable for an hour or so, say Ealing Broadway to Upminster, it is already certified for use on Network Rail - Gunnersbury to Richmond is shared with London Overground - and the bogies had components in common with the BR class 151 DMU, also built by Metro Cammell, which ran on the national network. Whether they can stick this flat diesel under the frames and make it work and be acceptable to passengers is, I guess, the $64000 question. Messrs Posner and Shooter seem to think so.

You cannot be serious!, but remember the maxim the more outrageous the rumour the more likely it is to be true.
As for Nick Clegg stating that Pacers are not fit for purpose, I wonder if he thinks Pacers are something that keeps the heart going. What did he ever know about trains anyway, Oh Yes there is an Election in 2015, enough said.
Keith G London, UK

The idea of repurposing the D78 stock has been around for about a year. For me, it started with an article in one of the more serious railway managzines here and the suggestion was to electrify some of the lines radiating from Leeds (I seem to remember Harrogate/Knaresborough) using 3rd rail and then to move the D78s north. I was never quite sure how serious it was but in recent months the idea has morphed into putting generators in the trains to drive the existing electric mototrs. One suggestion was to put in a big "railway" engine above the sole bar (thus taking up some of the passenger space). One of the issues is to find diesel engines that meet emissions requirements. Vivarail have settled on quite small underfloor engines which I've seen described as being from a Ford Transvit (panel) van. Remember, these are metro, not high speed trains.

I have to say none of these ideas was received with great enthusiasm either in forums like the usenet uk.railway (which you can also find in Google Groups) or in the railway press. The actual launch of the formal propsal was therefore met with surprise.

Will it work? I'm not an angineer but my gut feel is yes, it will to the extent that the train will move. I think there are bigger questions. Setting aside politics will the passengers welcome them? That depends on how good the sound proofing of the engines is and how the carriages are refurbished. There are a number of options being touted from retaining the mainly longitudinal seating and all the (4?) doors/side to fitting transverse seats, blanking off two doors and fitting an accessible toilet with retention tanks. They're also talking about 2/3 or 4 car versions. I think it also depends on how they are used. You could replace Pacers or you could use the D78s to provide extra capacity and keep the Pacers. Given that the big complaint is the lack of capacity of many passenger services here I can't help thinking that if the can be made to work using the D78s as extra capacity is the way to go.

In the meantime, not long before the Vivarail announcement, Porterbrook (one of the big lessors) announced they were planning to refurbish one Pacer to show what could be done. Mind you, another of the lessors has said "no way". The Pacer was never intended to be much more than a bus body on a 4 wheel chassis and to be a stopgap. If I had the choice between a Pacer and a bus instead I'd take the Pacer; they may not be ideal but they're better than a bus!

I have also been a bit surprised at the degree of scepticism that has been expressed, given that the D stock has not raised too much critical comment in the 30 years of LT operation. As Nick pointed out they have been alright for Ealing to Upminster, and many provincial services are of similar length. There is no question of their superiority over a Pacer, even though they may be much inferior to modern dmu like a class 172. Old vehicles can be wonderful - I drive a Volvo 240!

Others have rightly said that it all depends on the quality of the refurb. With good sound insulation, and even better seats they sound a great idea though I am worried that the apparent lack of a/c may compromise the former.

At least it all livens the news up in otherwise very depressing times on the public service front.

PS Vivarail refers to the bogies as being "nearly new" (sounds dangerously like "pre-owned" to me!). Have they been re-bogied at some point?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/14 15:41 by spflow.

How many Thames Line DMU's operating out of Paddington will be freed up by the Great Western electrification scheme? Maybe not enough to replace all the Pacers but wouldn't these units be perfectly suited to at least solving much of the problem?

Manchester to Liverpool electrification should be completed in the next year and should release additional DMU's for redeployment.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/14 21:42 by shed47.

There are clearance issues with the Networker DMUs used by FGW, in any case they won't be available until 2018. As for the NW electrification, that will release some units, but not enough.

D stock is very acceptable for short distance travel, it's design marked a return to winning ways by London Underground after the pedestrian C stock and the awful first generation Jubilee Line tube stock. And like all Underground stock they are built to last.

I believe their nickname among LU staff is The Block of Flats (apartments) because that's what they resemble if turned on their ends! The designer who worked on them was German, he was on an exchange programme between consumer product giant Braun and LU.

The Tubeprune website confirms that they were rebogied by Adtranz, the new bogies being a similar design to those under Northern Line stock, more able to cope with the imperfections of LU's track.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/14 00:30 by 86235.

55002 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We, in the north of the UK, can only hope it is
> not for real. The company Vivarail seems an
> oddball setup, quoted as having capital of £100.
> So where did Shooter get all the money from for
> this D78 stock. A recent visit to Leeds by Nick
> Clegg, he stated the Paces were 'not fit for
> purpose'. Only yesterday, ceefax were quoting the
> autumn government statement, that all Pacers would
> be replaced by new and modern stock! There will be
> money in the budget. That now leaves us with the
> other major issue - just what new diesel stock is
> actually available. Chris UK.

Political rhetoric Chris . Your stuck with them!