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Date: 02/28/21 17:01
UK accomodations
Author: fulham

As a follow-up to my post about my time in London in 1974, I have come up with more questions...

In our trips on the old Southern Region of British Rail, we rode on the "slam-door" EMU's most of the time.  However one trip we took to, I think Salisbury, we had a locomotive hauled consist.  We sat in a "compartment"...an accomodation off the corridor that had 2 facing couches.  It was very comfortable but I was wondering what this accomodation was and how prevelant it was at the time.  Also would our engine have been a straight diesel or a combination diesel/3rd-rail electric?  Again I cannot remember for sure where we headed...it was either Salisbury, Canterbury or Winchester.

Also we took a a day trip up to Stratford-on-Avon.  Left Paddington and changed to a DMU at Lemington Spa.  Pretty sure we rode in a standard non-AC coach with doors at both ends.  Coming back we went to get snacks and I have a vague recollection of being in a diner type car.  The car had tables at one end (similar to a US diner) and the Brit Rail conductor was eating at a table.  Did Brit Rail run diners at the time or was this the set up of their food service cars?  I do remember seeing the new AC MK? cars and thought they were really nice looking although we never rode on one.  I wish I was able to ride on the  HST service but, alas, we were several years too early!  

 



Date: 02/28/21 21:24
Re: UK accomodations
Author: railsmith

fulham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As a follow-up to my post about my time in London
> in 1974, I have come up with more questions...
>
> In our trips on the old Southern Region of British
> Rail, we rode on the "slam-door" EMU's most of the
> time.  However one trip we took to, I think
> Salisbury, we had a locomotive hauled consist. 
> We sat in a "compartment"...an accomodation off
> the corridor that had 2 facing couches.  It was
> very comfortable but I was wondering what this
> accomodation was and how prevelant it was at the
> time.  Also would our engine have been a straight
> diesel or a combination diesel/3rd-rail
> electric?  Again I cannot remember for sure where
> we headed...it was either Salisbury, Canterbury or
> Winchester.

A train to Salisbury in that year would have been diesel-hauled all the way from London. Electrification did not extend that far, instead diverging from the line to Salisbury and points west at Worting Junction, just beyond Basingstoke. That is still the case.

A train from London (Waterloo) to Winchester would have been formed of third-rail EMUs by then. The conversion from steam to electric took place in 1967, with the third-rail extended west to Bournemouth. Later, the juice was extended to Weymouth.

Canterbury is in an entirely different direction (south-east) from London. The destinations above are to the south-west. A Canterbury train in 1974 would have been third-rail EMU.

Corridor compartment coaches continued well past the steam era. In fact, when the Southern steam-hauled services from London to Bournemouth were converted to electric traction in 1967, a considerable number of the post-war Mark 1 coaches used on those services were formed into the EMU sets that replaced steam.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/21 21:28 by railsmith.



Date: 03/01/21 01:55
Re: UK accomodations
Author: Hexagon789

fulham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As a follow-up to my post about my time in London
> in 1974, I have come up with more questions...
>
> In our trips on the old Southern Region of British
> Rail, we rode on the "slam-door" EMU's most of the
> time.  However one trip we took to, I think
> Salisbury, we had a locomotive hauled consist. 
> We sat in a "compartment"...an accomodation off
> the corridor that had 2 facing couches.  It was
> very comfortable but I was wondering what this
> accomodation was and how prevelant it was at the
> time.  Also would our engine have been a straight
> diesel or a combination diesel/3rd-rail
> electric?  Again I cannot remember for sure where
> we headed...it was either Salisbury, Canterbury or
> Winchester.
>
> Also we took a a day trip up to
> Stratford-on-Avon.  Left Paddington and changed
> to a DMU at Lemington Spa.  Pretty sure we rode
> in a standard non-AC coach with doors at both
> ends.  Coming back we went to get snacks and I
> have a vague recollection of being in a diner type
> car.  The car had tables at one end (similar to a
> US diner) and the Brit Rail conductor was eating
> at a table.  Did Brit Rail run diners at the time
> or was this the set up of their food service
> cars?  I do remember seeing the new AC MK? cars
> and thought they were really nice looking although
> we never rode on one.  I wish I was able to ride
> on the  HST service but, alas, we were several
> years too early!  
>
>  

In 1974 compartment stock was still quite common, the best trains had cars designated Mk2 these came in 7 variants in these Second Class was open seating only, no compartments. The older Mk1 type cars however had compartments in both classes as did the Southern Region EMUs based on the design.

London Waterloo-Salisbury would've been either loco-hauled Mk1s on a through service to Exeter or a stopping service terminating at Salisbury, the two services ran an alternating schedule iirc. The Salisbury trains were at some point formed of a push-pull Class 33/1 (1550hp diesel-electric, 85mph) and a 4TC, the latter a 4-car trailer multiple unit which could be hauled by anything fitted with the Southern Region MU equipment. They were usually used in pairs with a 4REP (4-car, 3200hp, 90mph) EMU on London-Weymouth expresses but did appear on other routes. I'm not sure though when the Salisbury services went over to these consists or what preceded them. If you went to Winchester it may've been a 4REP on a Weymouth service you caught. If it was Canterbury it would likely have been one of the more commuter orientated EMUs - a 4CEP or similar.

If the train at Leamington was a DMU, it would probably have been a high-density Class 116 or 117 DMU (3-car, 70mph). These had doors to each seating bay. I think the 117s usually ran this route.

The service on the way back may have been a Birmingham-London Paddington via Leamington Spa and Banbury. These were Mk1s and early Mk2s I believe usually hauled by a Class 47. By the 1980s services to Birmingham on this route became very infrequent.

One interesting point on catering cars in this period was the were all Mk1s, no Mk2 catering cars were ever built bar a prototype conversion. The reason was that the Mk1 vehicles were among the newer Mk1s and BR reasoned the seating cars were where passengers spent more time anyway. This lead to rakes of all Mk2 coaches, even air-conditioned ones being broken up with a solitary Mk1 catering car in the middle.

British Rail ran their own catering services until 1988 when they put out to tender for a private operator to take it over. In 1973 they formed Travellers Fare to operate train catering this being separated at that point from British Transport Hotels who previously nominally provided catering services.

The type of catering of course varied hugely by route, but you had everything from a Minature Buffet car which had a small counter serving light snacks, sandwiches and drinks taking up a 1/4 of a second class car to a full kitchen car with no seating at all which would run coupled to a seating car acting as diner. Some important workings had two catering cars.

The AC cars would've been Mk2 at this point, the last 3 variants of these 2D, 2E and 2F were all air-conditioned. The 2D were introduced from April 1971 on the East Coast Main Line between London King's Cross, Leeds, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh and Aberdeen. The Mk2E went to the Great Western Main Line for London Paddington-Bristol/Cardiff & Swansea trains. The Mk2F went to the West Coast Main line for services from London Euston to Birmingham/Wolverhampton, Liverpool, Manchester and Glasgow services. Some 2F also went to the East Coast and Great Western.

There were a number of detail differences between the types, the 2D included compartment vehicles in First Class for example, but the 2E and 2F did not. They were nicknamed "coffins" due to having sealed windows for the AC.

Unfortunately yes, too early for the HSTs - introduced from October 1976 on Paddington-Bristol/Cardiff/Swansea and May 1978 on King's Cross-Leeds/Edinburgh. Though the prototype did run passenger services in about 1972-74 between Paddington and Bristol standing in for the usual loco-hauled set but still limited to 100mph.

I've tried to be concise as I could, but it's difficult trying to do that and still explain things clearly - hopefully it's not too much information overload!

I've also tried to use neutral railroad/railway terms not specifically UK ones, but if anything isn't clear please feel free to tell me!

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/21 05:56 by Hexagon789.



Date: 03/01/21 05:48
Re: UK accomodations
Author: gbmott

That was a very nice and useful summary, even for those of us somewhat more familiar with BR in the '70s.  Now an add-on question.  Mk3 was introduced with the HST (yes?) and there were the Mk3 Sleeping Cars.  Question -- were there ever non-HST Mk3 coaches?  If so, where did they operate?  I know Mk4s re-equipped the WCML.

Gordon



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/21 06:13 by gbmott.



Date: 03/01/21 11:44
Re: UK accomodations
Author: 86235

gbmott Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That was a very nice and useful summary, even for
> those of us somewhat more familiar with BR in the
> '70s.  Now an add-on question.  Mk3 was
> introduced with the HST (yes?) and there were the
> Mk3 Sleeping Cars.  Question -- were there ever
> non-HST Mk3 coaches?  If so, where did they
> operate?  I know Mk4s re-equipped the WCML.
>
> Gordon

Mk3 coaches became very common, on the WCML, and latterly on Abellio Greater Anglia (AGA). Mk 4s never worked on the WCML, they were designed to partner with the 91 on the ECML, the so called IC225, as they had a service speed, never used except on special occasions, of 140 mph.

Back in 2005 87012 The Olympian with VWC Mk 3s. Important to note they weren't interchangeable with HST trailers, different electrics.

87002 is southbound on Mk 3s. Generally, but not exclusively, the Mk 3s worked to Glasgow, Preston, Manchester and Liverpool whilst Birmingham / Wolverhampton services were generally Mk2d/e/f stock.

The last loco hauled Mk 3s were removed from service by AGA in 2020.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/21 12:40 by 86235.






Date: 03/01/21 12:52
Re: UK accomodations
Author: Hexagon789

gbmott Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That was a very nice and useful summary, even for
> those of us somewhat more familiar with BR in the
> '70s.  Now an add-on question.  Mk3 was
> introduced with the HST (yes?) and there were the
> Mk3 Sleeping Cars.  Question -- were there ever
> non-HST Mk3 coaches?  If so, where did they
> operate?  I know Mk4s re-equipped the WCML.
>
> Gordon

I'm glad people found it interesting. This is the sort of knowledge I'd one day love to have in relation to US and Canadian railroads.

In answer to your question, yes there are non-HST Mk3s aside from sleeping cars these are called Mk3A (original batch from 1975) and Mk3B (later upgraded batch introduced from 1985).

These loco-hauled Mk3 cars were actually introduced before the HST ones, appearing from May 1975 in conjunction with the timetable change with four sets initially made up for certain London Euston-Liverpool/Manchester trains using Mk1 baggage cars and Mk1 kitchen/buffet cars as initially only two types existed - Open Firsts and Open Seconds.

The Mk3 catering cars appeared from about 1978/79 and the sleepers not until the early 1980s, their introduction delayed due to further fire safety measures being incorporated.

Further vehicles were introduced through the 1970s allowing Glasgow trains to become Mk3 from 1976 onwards and a higher-quality batch of First Class vehicles designated Mk3B appeared from 1985.

The loco-hauled versions are also 125mph rated vehicles but originally only operates at 100mph, that was the maximum speed on the West Coast Main at the time. They were often mixed with 100mph Mk2 air-con vehicles during this period, being treated as a common pool.

In May 1984 110mph running was introduced to the WCML with 4 Euston-Glasgow trains formed entirely of Mk3 stock with a Mk1 baggage car being permitted this higher speed. All Mk3 consists were extended progressively to more train services and West Coast routes throughout the 1980s. (Note Mk2s were never allowed 110mph, only the Mk3s.)

After British Rail was privatised Virgin Trains became the operator of the loco-hauled Mk3 cars, they replaced them with tilting Class 390 EMUs by the end of 2005 most were transferred to the Great Eastern Main Line replacing Mk2 cars on London Liverpool Street-Norwich trains where they remained until very recently, replaced by Stadler built EMUs. Transport for Wales also operated a few on its 'Premier Service' but these have been recently replaced by Mk4 cars cascaded from the East Coast Main Line by 'Azuma' EMUs.


The Mk4s themselves re-equipped the ECML not WCML replacing most of the HSTs, forming fixed trainsets with Class 91 electric locomotives known as InterCity 225s. They until recently never ran anywhere else.

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/21 12:55 by Hexagon789.



Date: 03/01/21 12:54
Re: UK accomodations
Author: Hexagon789

86235 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> gbmott Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > That was a very nice and useful summary, even
> for
> > those of us somewhat more familiar with BR in
> the
> > '70s.  Now an add-on question.  Mk3 was
> > introduced with the HST (yes?) and there were
> the
> > Mk3 Sleeping Cars.  Question -- were there
> ever
> > non-HST Mk3 coaches?  If so, where did they
> > operate?  I know Mk4s re-equipped the WCML.
> >
> > Gordon
>
> Mk3 coaches became very common, on the WCML, and
> latterly on Abellio Greater Anglia (AGA). Mk 4s
> never worked on the WCML, they were designed to
> partner with the 91 on the ECML, the so called
> IC225, as they had a service speed, never used
> except on special occasions, of 140 mph.
>
> Back in 2005 87012 The Olympian with VWC Mk 3s.
> Important to note they weren't interchangeable
> with HST trailers, different electrics.
>
> 87002 is southbound on Mk 3s. Generally, but not
> exclusively, the Mk 3s worked to Glasgow, Preston,
> Manchester and Liverpool whilst Birmingham /
> Wolverhampton services were generally Mk2d/e/f
> stock.
>
> The last loco hauled Mk 3s were removed from
> service by AGA in 2020.

Some lovely pictures there.

I think Virgin made the change to concentrate the Mk2 and Mk3 sets on specific routes, British Rail seemed to be slightly more fluid.

Posted from Android



Date: 03/01/21 13:09
Re: UK accomodations
Author: 86235

fulham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> However one trip we took to, I think
> Salisbury, we had a locomotive hauled consist. 
> We sat in a "compartment"...an accomodation off
> the corridor that had 2 facing couches.  It was
> very comfortable but I was wondering what this
> accomodation was and how prevelant it was at the time

From the birth of railways in Britain passenger cars with individual compartments were universal. With the coming of the vestibule and connecting corridor in the late 19th century the various railway companies wrestled with varying configurations but almost all fell back on the type of coach you travelled in to Salisbury, a side corridor with compartments seating, depending on the company, three or four per side. The most palatial sat two per side. It was only post WW1 that design became more adventurous and carriages without compartments, we describe them as "open", became more common.



Date: 03/01/21 13:16
Re: UK accomodations
Author: 86235

Hexagon789 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> gbmott Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > That was a very nice and useful summary, even
> for
> > those of us somewhat more familiar with BR in
> the
> > '70s.  Now an add-on question.  Mk3 was
> > introduced with the HST (yes?) and there were
> the
> > Mk3 Sleeping Cars.  Question -- were there
> ever
> > non-HST Mk3 coaches?  If so, where did they
> > operate?  I know Mk4s re-equipped the WCML.
> >
> > Gordon
>
> I'm glad people found it interesting. This is the
> sort of knowledge I'd one day love to have in
> relation to US and Canadian railroads.
>
> In answer to your question, yes there are non-HST
> Mk3s aside from sleeping cars these are called
> Mk3A (original batch from 1975) and Mk3B (later
> upgraded batch introduced from 1985).
>
> These loco-hauled Mk3 cars were actually
> introduced before the HST ones, appearing from May
> 1975 in conjunction with the timetable change with
> four sets initially made up for certain London
> Euston-Liverpool/Manchester trains using Mk1
> baggage cars and Mk1 kitchen/buffet cars as
> initially only two types existed - Open Firsts and
> Open Seconds.
>
> The Mk3 catering cars appeared from about 1978/79
> and the sleepers not until the early 1980s, their
> introduction delayed due to further fire safety
> measures being incorporated.
>
> Further vehicles were introduced through the 1970s
> allowing Glasgow trains to become Mk3 from 1976
> onwards and a higher-quality batch of First Class
> vehicles designated Mk3B appeared from 1985.
>
> The loco-hauled versions are also 125mph rated
> vehicles but originally only operates at 100mph,
> that was the maximum speed on the West Coast Main
> at the time. They were often mixed with 100mph Mk2
> air-con vehicles during this period, being treated
> as a common pool.
>
> In May 1984 110mph running was introduced to the
> WCML with 4 Euston-Glasgow trains formed entirely
> of Mk3 stock with a Mk1 baggage car being
> permitted this higher speed. All Mk3 consists were
> extended progressively to more train services and
> West Coast routes throughout the 1980s. (Note Mk2s
> were never allowed 110mph, only the Mk3s.)
>
> After British Rail was privatised Virgin Trains
> became the operator of the loco-hauled Mk3 cars,
> they replaced them with tilting Class 390 EMUs by
> the end of 2005 most were transferred to the Great
> Eastern Main Line replacing Mk2 cars on London
> Liverpool Street-Norwich trains where they
> remained until very recently, replaced by Stadler
> built EMUs. Transport for Wales also operated a
> few on its 'Premier Service' but these have been
> recently replaced by Mk4 cars cascaded from the
> East Coast Main Line by 'Azuma' EMUs.
>
>
> The Mk4s themselves re-equipped the ECML not WCML
> replacing most of the HSTs, forming fixed
> trainsets with Class 91 electric locomotives known
> as InterCity 225s. They until recently never ran
> anywhere else.
>
> Posted from Android

Just to add loco hauled Mk 3s (and Air conditioned Mk 2s for that matter) also operated on CIE in the Irish Republic, they also had some suburban non-airconditioned Mk 3s too, unique to Ireland.



Date: 03/01/21 13:41
Re: UK accomodations
Author: Hexagon789

86235 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hexagon789 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > gbmott Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > That was a very nice and useful summary, even
> > for
> > > those of us somewhat more familiar with BR in
> > the
> > > '70s.  Now an add-on question.  Mk3 was
> > > introduced with the HST (yes?) and there were
> > the
> > > Mk3 Sleeping Cars.  Question -- were there
> > ever
> > > non-HST Mk3 coaches?  If so, where did they
> > > operate?  I know Mk4s re-equipped the WCML.
> > >
> > > Gordon
> >
> > I'm glad people found it interesting. This is
> the
> > sort of knowledge I'd one day love to have in
> > relation to US and Canadian railroads.
> >
> > In answer to your question, yes there are
> non-HST
> > Mk3s aside from sleeping cars these are called
> > Mk3A (original batch from 1975) and Mk3B (later
> > upgraded batch introduced from 1985).
> >
> > These loco-hauled Mk3 cars were actually
> > introduced before the HST ones, appearing from
> May
> > 1975 in conjunction with the timetable change
> with
> > four sets initially made up for certain London
> > Euston-Liverpool/Manchester trains using Mk1
> > baggage cars and Mk1 kitchen/buffet cars as
> > initially only two types existed - Open Firsts
> and
> > Open Seconds.
> >
> > The Mk3 catering cars appeared from about
> 1978/79
> > and the sleepers not until the early 1980s,
> their
> > introduction delayed due to further fire safety
> > measures being incorporated.
> >
> > Further vehicles were introduced through the
> 1970s
> > allowing Glasgow trains to become Mk3 from 1976
> > onwards and a higher-quality batch of First
> Class
> > vehicles designated Mk3B appeared from 1985.
> >
> > The loco-hauled versions are also 125mph rated
> > vehicles but originally only operates at
> 100mph,
> > that was the maximum speed on the West Coast
> Main
> > at the time. They were often mixed with 100mph
> Mk2
> > air-con vehicles during this period, being
> treated
> > as a common pool.
> >
> > In May 1984 110mph running was introduced to
> the
> > WCML with 4 Euston-Glasgow trains formed
> entirely
> > of Mk3 stock with a Mk1 baggage car being
> > permitted this higher speed. All Mk3 consists
> were
> > extended progressively to more train services
> and
> > West Coast routes throughout the 1980s. (Note
> Mk2s
> > were never allowed 110mph, only the Mk3s.)
> >
> > After British Rail was privatised Virgin Trains
> > became the operator of the loco-hauled Mk3
> cars,
> > they replaced them with tilting Class 390 EMUs
> by
> > the end of 2005 most were transferred to the
> Great
> > Eastern Main Line replacing Mk2 cars on London
> > Liverpool Street-Norwich trains where they
> > remained until very recently, replaced by
> Stadler
> > built EMUs. Transport for Wales also operated a
> > few on its 'Premier Service' but these have
> been
> > recently replaced by Mk4 cars cascaded from the
> > East Coast Main Line by 'Azuma' EMUs.
> >
> >
> > The Mk4s themselves re-equipped the ECML not
> WCML
> > replacing most of the HSTs, forming fixed
> > trainsets with Class 91 electric locomotives
> known
> > as InterCity 225s. They until recently never
> ran
> > anywhere else.
> >
> > Posted from Android
>
> Just to add loco hauled Mk 3s (and Air conditioned
> Mk 2s for that matter) also operated on CIE in the
> Irish Republic, they also had some suburban
> non-airconditioned Mk 3s too, unique to Ireland.

Indeed they did but I didn't want to mention the Irish Mk2D and Mk3 cars for fear of making my post even longer than it was already!



Date: 03/01/21 16:53
Re: UK accomodations
Author: Steinzeit2

86235 Wrote:
........
> Important to note they [ MK 3 coaches ] weren't interchangeable
> with HST trailers, different electrics.

When the HST  -- or HSDT, D for Diesel as it was originally termed -- was first developed the concept was that all Mk3 coaches would be the same, and the HST power cars would simply bookend an appropriate formation.  But prior to the build of the production run the decision was made to change from the standard British Rail electric supply of 1000 V AC/DC to three phase AC for just the HST fleet, fed from the power cars, saving the capital and maintenance costs of on-car three phase generation;  this was made possible by the concept of operating the HST's in a strictly fixed formation, a practice that turned out to be more consultant-theoretical than actual practice.

I have always thought this thinking was unfortunate;  either make the whole fleet one way or the other.  If it were all 1000v, one would have interchangeability across the board, simplifying formation changes to suit traffic conditions, both long and short term;  if it were 3 phase, give the LMR electrics that capability and start a rolling program to give selected diesels the same.  But then, I didn't have to battle the man from the Treasury......

SZ



Date: 03/01/21 17:31
Re: UK accomodations
Author: fulham

I want to thank all of you for the information provided.  It is very much appreciated!



Date: 03/01/21 20:59
Re: UK accomodations
Author: gbmott

86235 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> gbmott Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > That was a very nice and useful summary, even
> for
> > those of us somewhat more familiar with BR in
> the
> > '70s.  Now an add-on question.  Mk3 was
> > introduced with the HST (yes?) and there were
> the
> > Mk3 Sleeping Cars.  Question -- were there
> ever
> > non-HST Mk3 coaches?  If so, where did they
> > operate?  I know Mk4s re-equipped the WCML.
> >
> > Gordon
>
>. . . Mk 4s never worked on the WCML, they were designed to
> partner with the 91 on the ECML, . . .

I always associate HSTs with the ECML and forget that the Mk4s largely replaced them with electrification of the line.  Burned into my memory is the feeling of panic when riding an HST for the first time and having arrived in York, could not figure out how to open the door!

Gordon



Date: 03/02/21 02:05
Re: UK accomodations
Author: Hexagon789

Steinzeit2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 86235 Wrote:
> ........
> > Important to note they [ MK 3 coaches ] weren't
> interchangeable
> > with HST trailers, different electrics.
>
> When the HST  -- or HSDT, D for Diesel as it was
> originally termed -- was first developed the
> concept was that all Mk3 coaches would be the
> same, and the HST power cars would simply bookend
> an appropriate formation.  But prior to the build
> of the production run the decision was made to
> change from the standard British Rail electric
> supply of 1000 V AC/DC to three phase AC for just
> the HST fleet, fed from the power cars, saving the
> capital and maintenance costs of on-car three
> phase generation;  this was made possible by the
> concept of operating the HST's in a strictly fixed
> formation, a practice that turned out to be more
> consultant-theoretical than actual practice.
>
> I have always thought this thinking was
> unfortunate;  either make the whole fleet one way
> or the other.  If it were all 1000v, one would
> have interchangeability across the board,
> simplifying formation changes to suit traffic
> conditions, both long and short term;  if it were
> 3 phase, give the LMR electrics that capability
> and start a rolling program to give selected
> diesels the same.  But then, I didn't have to
> battle the man from the Treasury......
>
> SZ

The loco-hauled ones had to work with existing 1000V heated stock, so that ruled out making those 3-phase 415V. Adding the equipment to the HST power cars to run the HST Mk3s at 1000V probably wasn't considered worth the expense as you suggest.

Posted from Android



Date: 03/02/21 02:06
Re: UK accomodations
Author: Hexagon789

gbmott Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 86235 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > gbmott Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > That was a very nice and useful summary, even
> > for
> > > those of us somewhat more familiar with BR in
> > the
> > > '70s.  Now an add-on question.  Mk3 was
> > > introduced with the HST (yes?) and there were
> > the
> > > Mk3 Sleeping Cars.  Question -- were there
> > ever
> > > non-HST Mk3 coaches?  If so, where did they
> > > operate?  I know Mk4s re-equipped the WCML.
> > >
> > > Gordon
> >
> >. . . Mk 4s never worked on the WCML, they were
> designed to
> > partner with the 91 on the ECML, . . .
>
> I always associate HSTs with the ECML and forget
> that the Mk4s largely replaced them with
> electrification of the line.  Burned into my
> memory is the feeling of panic when riding an HST
> for the first time and having arrived in York,
> could not figure out how to open the door!
>
> Gordon


Still confused tourists taking HSTs up the ECML to destinations off the electric wires until those HSTs were withdrawn. Just as well most of the station stops were more than a minute, sometimes it took as long as that for people to open the door!

Posted from Android



Date: 03/02/21 10:37
Re: UK accommodations
Author: nm2320

In 1981 or 1982 I had a week in the UK. One day I decided to travel from London to York. I remember I was to ride an HST. After purchasing my ticket at King's Cross, I read a message on the departure board that said  "due to a landfall between Grantham and Newark...." there would be a detour. Since at that time the train service was HST, I had the pleasure of a fast ride until the diversion and then was treated to various lines with bullhead rail, vintage signal boxes, freight workings, and beautiful English countryside. I do not recall how late I arrived in York. But I had to scratch the visit to the museum. Returned via another service that went a normal routing via various lines that I can only recall were other than ECML, but the train was "conventional" diesel locomotive and I sat in an open seating passenger car. Then I saw much of industrial and urban England. Quite a day. Great English breakfast on the HST. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/21 10:42 by nm2320.



Date: 03/02/21 12:37
Re: UK accommodations
Author: Hexagon789

nm2320 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In 1981 or 1982 I had a week in the UK. One day I
> decided to travel from London to York. I remember
> I was to ride an HST. After purchasing my ticket
> at King's Cross, I read a message on the departure
> board that said  "due to a landfall between
> Grantham and Newark...." there would be a detour.
> Since at that time the train service was HST, I
> had the pleasure of a fast ride until the
> diversion and then was treated to various lines
> with bullhead rail, vintage signal boxes, freight
> workings, and beautiful English countryside. I do
> not recall how late I arrived in York. But I had
> to scratch the visit to the museum. Returned via
> another service that went a normal routing via
> various lines that I can only recall were other
> than ECML, but the train was "conventional" diesel
> locomotive and I sat in an open seating passenger
> car. Then I saw much of industrial and urban
> England. Quite a day. Great English breakfast on
> the HST. 

Possibly diverted via the Redwing line via Lincoln and Sleaford, the ex-Great Northern and Great Eastern Joint line. They've used that line fairly recently to divert trains for engineering works, might still be jointed rails in places, it's also quite slow - 55mph if I remember rightly.

Posted from Android



Date: 03/02/21 17:49
Re: UK accomodations
Author: Steinzeit2

Hexagon789 Wrote:
> The loco-hauled ones had to work with existing
> 1000V heated stock, so that ruled out making those
> 3-phase 415V. Adding the equipment to the HST
> power cars to run the HST Mk3s at 1000V probably
> wasn't considered worth the expense as you
> suggest.
>
I understand the idea of commonality, which is why I think the HST's should have been built not as fixed formation undeformable trainsets, but to the original concept of power cars capable of bracketing different stock, depending on the application.  The HST's just weren't that suitable to do every service throughout the day, seven days a week -- the noticeable difference in 1st vs standard class passengers weekdays vs weekends, for example, or Pullman [ in the IC-era sense ] services vs all others.

But if the case for a trainline three phase was clear cut, then that same financial cum operating logic should have been applied to the locomotive hauled Mk 3's as well.  The LMR eventually received 225 Mk 3's, and by the summer of 1976* had formed them into twenty Mk 3 formations, nine for Glasgow and the remainder for Liv/Man.  Discounting the usual suspects [ BG, etc ] these were pure sets except for 20 Mk 2a/c, ironically because the last 20 Mk 3 1st were deferred to allow HST vehicles for the WR to be built first.   Would it not have made sense for these LMR vehicles to also be built without m/a sets, and the m/a set installed in an appropriate number of the electric [ and to a less extent diesel, to allow for outages and reroutes ] locos for these services;  I know they were not that roomy, but I would have thought an m/a set could be fitted to an 87 [ which would also retain its usual eth output ].  Diesels would have been more complex, but in the mid-seventies BR was replacing the 110 volt generators on diesels with new alternators that also furnished [ rectified ] eth.  The opportunity was there for some classes to receive a further m/a set to provide an alternate eth supply for a/c stock, again retaining the DC eth as well.

I think either approach would have been better than the 'some of each' that was adopted.  If nothing else, it would certainly have helped all those TRUK vs TRUB vs TRSB shuffles and redundant vehicles.  YOMV, of course.

Best regards, SZ

* 6/76 MR



Date: 03/03/21 10:08
Re: UK accomodations
Author: Hexagon789

Steinzeit2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hexagon789 Wrote:
> > The loco-hauled ones had to work with existing
> > 1000V heated stock, so that ruled out making
> those
> > 3-phase 415V. Adding the equipment to the HST
> > power cars to run the HST Mk3s at 1000V
> probably
> > wasn't considered worth the expense as you
> > suggest.
> >
> I understand the idea of commonality, which is why
> I think the HST's should have been built not as
> fixed formation undeformable trainsets, but to the
> original concept of power cars capable of
> bracketing different stock, depending on the
> application.  The HST's just weren't that
> suitable to do every service throughout the day,
> seven days a week -- the noticeable difference in
> 1st vs standard class passengers weekdays vs
> weekends, for example, or Pullman [ in the IC-era
> sense ] services vs all others.
>
> But if the case for a trainline three phase was
> clear cut, then that same financial cum operating
> logic should have been applied to the locomotive
> hauled Mk 3's as well.  The LMR eventually
> received 225 Mk 3's, and by the summer of 1976*
> had formed them into twenty Mk 3 formations, nine
> for Glasgow and the remainder for Liv/Man. 
> Discounting the usual suspects [ BG, etc ] these
> were pure sets except for 20 Mk 2a/c, ironically
> because the last 20 Mk 3 1st were deferred to
> allow HST vehicles for the WR to be built
> first.   Would it not have made sense for these
> LMR vehicles to also be built without m/a sets,
> and the m/a set installed in an appropriate number
> of the electric [ and to a less extent diesel, to
> allow for outages and reroutes ] locos for these
> services;  I know they were not that roomy, but I
> would have thought an m/a set could be fitted to
> an 87 [ which would also retain its usual eth
> output ].  Diesels would have been more complex,
> but in the mid-seventies BR was replacing the 110
> volt generators on diesels with new alternators
> that also furnished [ rectified ] eth.  The
> opportunity was there for some classes to receive
> a further m/a set to provide an alternate eth
> supply for a/c stock, again retaining the DC eth
> as well.
>
> I think either approach would have been better
> than the 'some of each' that was adopted.  If
> nothing else, it would certainly have helped all
> those TRUK vs TRUB vs TRSB shuffles and redundant
> vehicles.  YOMV, of course.
>
> Best regards, SZ
>
> * 6/76 MR

I can't say exactly why the decisions that were made were made, but I can offer the reasoning behind the switch to 3-phase supply for the HST Mk3s:

"During the overhaul, some technical changes were made, the most significant of these being a modification to the alternator on on 43000. The brushless AC alternator on the power cars made it suitable for feeding electric power for the auxiliaries directly from the auxiliary alternator rather than converting it to DC, sending it down the train to motor-alternator sets under each car, which then converted the DC supply to AC power for the carriage equipment. This change eliminated the weight and unreliability of individual motor alternator equipment under each coach."

I can't really offer a better explanation personally.

Posted from Android



Date: 03/03/21 14:41
Re: UK accomodations
Author: SOO6617

Hexagon789 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm glad people found it interesting. This is the
> sort of knowledge I'd one day love to have in
> relation to US and Canadian railroads.

If it is passenger train cars dating from the 1930s to the 1970s, the dawn of Amtrak, for the US and Canada, then the book "Car Names, Numbers, and Consists" by Robert Wayner and self-published, is a very good starting point. It is a soft cover book with no photographs, but with many floor plans. It covers all Lightweight cars and has information on early changes to them.



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