European Railroad Discussion > Channel Tunnel Services to Germany/Switzerland Proposed

When the Channel Tunnel opened 30+ years ago I imagined there would trains from London
to many cities throughout the continent including night trains.  That has not been the
case with services confined to Paris, Brussels and (just a few) Amsterdam.

Ambitious plans have now been announced to expand to locations including Bordeaux,
Marseille, Genèva, Zürich, Köln and Frankfurt.  Passenger throughput per hour would
almost triple.  From the BBC: 

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg5d6l5lz4jo

Eurostar hold a monopoly at present but Virgin Group and other private operators have
expresseed interest.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/25 13:02 by milepost20.

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How many trains per hour in each direction can the Channel Tunnel handle?

I don't know how multiple carriers use the same tracks....who provides qualified crews? 

engineerinvirginia Wrote:
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> I don't know how multiple carriers use the same
> tracks....who provides qualified crews? 

Not unusual in Britain, or Europe for that matter -- intercity, commuter and freight trains run on the same tracks, with crews provided by the respective operators.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/25 09:07 by railsmith.

The issue that any new operator to locations not currently served will face is accomodating the border formalities for passengers arriving in the UK. Currently only Brussels, Paris & Lille are equipped to process the passports of UK bound passengers by the UK Border Force. So, for instance, the inbound Amsterdam service stops at Lille for an hour or so whilst all passengers have to leave the train to be processed. Any new services to Germany or Switzerland would have to do likewise, rather lessening the attractiveness of a one seat train service.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/25 11:02 by 86235.

Fabulous photo. The framing, the unusual lighting, all make it unique. Congratulations. My recent trip from London left before dawn, so it wasn't quite as appealing. :-)

railsmith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> engineerinvirginia Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I don't know how multiple carriers use the same
> > tracks....who provides qualified crews? 
>
> Not unusual in Britain, or Europe for that matter
> -- intercity, commuter and freight trains run on
> the same tracks, with crews provided by the
> respective operators.

In Chicago in the 60s, B&OCT was used by 17 foreign lines, C&WI by 8, BRC by 9, IHB by 5. I don't have counts, but I'm sure TRRA in St. Louis and KCT kn Kansas City were in similar situations. Just a matter of being qualified on that line just as on any other. Don't know about now, but in the 70s and 80s, BN extra men in Seattle had to be qualifgied to work four very different routes to Vancouver BC, Wenatchee, Ellensburg, and Portland.

TAW

I agree with the comments to the effect that crewing issues can be worked out. As TAW noted, quite a few roads and their crews operated over B&OCT in Chicago. And speaking as a longtime St. Louisan to his comment suggesting the same was true in St. Louis for TRRA and A&S, that indeed was the case there as well.

In visits to Europe, I have always enjoyed the many international services that are offered. International passenger trains that cross borders in Europe are quite common, and they operate quite seamlessly. Its been my understanding that crews are generally changed near borders for the operational positions, with each national operator's crew running in their own country, with some limited rights after qualification to cross a border to the first crew change point in the recently entered nation. I've seen such crew changes take place at station stops near borders, and surmised that's what was happening.

The same seems to be true for run-through freight / goods trains. For example last fall at Brennero on the Austrian-Italian border on the Brenner Pass, we watched crew changes between OBB (Austrian Railways) and FS (Italian Railways) crews on some trains. But some ran through as well. So just as here in the US, either pattern would seem to be an option. It's just a matter of working it out and properly qualifying crews.

In any case, this is good news. The step-by-step gradual integration over many years of European passenger and freight services into farther-reaching and more cohesive service patterns has been fascinating to watch. For us as railfans it's been interesting in one way, and dismaying in another, as interesting equipment and services gradually disappeared into a more and more homogenized pattern.

And how ironic, as Nick "86235" notes, that after all of this expansion and integration that the real stumbling block might turn out to be an old matter that was was solved and then unwound - customs formalities. One more price for Brexit. Those unanticipated consequences can really have a way of coming back to bite you. Some folks here in Washington DC would do well to remind themselves of that reality.

MC

ironmtn Wrote:
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> And how ironic, as Nick "86235" notes, that after
> all of this expansion and integration that the
> real stumbling block might turn out to be an old
> matter that was was solved and then unwound -
> customs formalities. One more price for Brexit.
> Those unanticipated consequences can really have a
> way of coming back to bite you. Some folks here in
> Washington DC would do well to remind themselves
> of that reality.
>
> MC

I'm no supporter of Brexit, I regard it as the most damaging wound this country has ever inflicted on itself, but the border issue isn't a direct consequence of Brexit. Even when we were members of the EU we hadn't joined Schengen - the open borders agreement, which allows seamless travel across borders in the EU. So for travel from France into the UK passport checks have always been a necessity from the UK point of view. UK Border Force staff are deployed at Brussels Midi, Paris Gare du Nord and Lille Europe to carry out such checks, but nowhere else. That's the sticking point. Brexit has made those checks more cumbersome, but they've always been there. Sadly the Border Force won't consent to doing them on the train.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/25 08:58 by 86235.

Thanks for the clarification, Nick.

MC

5 minute headways, so 12 trains/hr each way is the max capacity.

symph1 Wrote:
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> Fabulous photo. The framing, the unusual lighting,
> all make it unique. Congratulations. 

Agreed - one "cleanup" makes it even better!!

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TAW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> railsmith Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > engineerinvirginia Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I don't know how multiple carriers use the
> same
> > > tracks....who provides qualified crews? 
> >
> > Not unusual in Britain, or Europe for that
> matter
> > -- intercity, commuter and freight trains run
> on
> > the same tracks, with crews provided by the
> > respective operators.
>
> In Chicago in the 60s, B&OCT was used by 17
> foreign lines, C&WI by 8, BRC by 9, IHB by 5. I
> don't have counts, but I'm sure TRRA in St. Louis
> and KCT kn Kansas City were in similar situations.

In Germany it is more a matter of being qualified on
the locomotive, cab car, or MU, for the national DB
InfraGO lines. Take the DB lokführer who has a 
YouTube channel called IC locomotive driver.
One trip he is working a trip out of Hanover on the
line to Braunschwieg on another from Ingolstadt to
Nuremburg. BTW If you are interested in Cab Ride
videos, I highly recommend his channel, turn on the
Closed Captions as he explains everything that is
happpening, including all warning sounds in
English. I particularly liked his trip from Minden to
Bielefeld video as he explained signals and
wayside signs.

86235 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm no supporter of Brexit, I regard it as the
> most damaging wound this country has ever
> inflicted on itself, but the border issue isn't a
> direct consequence of Brexit. Even when we were
> members of the EU we hadn't joined Schengen - the
> open borders agreement, which allows seamless
> travel across borders in the EU. So for travel
> from France into the UK passport checks have
> always been a necessity from the UK point of view.
> UK Border Force staff are deployed at Brussels
> Midi, Paris Gare du Nord and Lille Europe to carry
> out such checks, but nowhere else. That's the
> sticking point. Brexit has made those checks more
> cumbersome, but they've always been there. Sadly
> the Border Force won't consent to doing them on
> the train.

I was wondering about that - thanks for clarifying. And pity the BF won't do on-train checks. That would make it vastly better indeed.