Railroaders' Nostalgia > Mad Dog Chronicle #184 The Saga of the Medflyer

In the last analysis, the SP should not have spent so much effort resisting the startup of trains 15/16 and 17/18. Actually, if you look at TT#19 on the Martinez Sub, the Medflyer is # 18 Eastward and #15, Westward. On the Niles,San Francisco and Salinas Subs, it is #16 and #17. (From Western Division TT 19 Effective 10/25/1981.) Let me tell you the story.... It took a National Arbitration Pannel Decission to implement that set of trains and before the trains were eliminated by cutting the State funding, the SP made a lot of incentive money off of them and was sorry to see the trains disappear, soon after Governor Dukmagian came into office.

There was a contest to pick the name of the train, it was ultimately named the "Spirit of California" We all called it the Medflyer.

(cont.)

mdo

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In 1980, the SP felt that it was under assualt.

First, a court had ordered the start up of the Oxnard Commute Service. We had sent equipment down to LA out of our reserve pool in SF, from the SF/SJ commute service.

Next, at the instigation of Cal Trans, under Adrianna Gianturco, Amtrak had begun two Arbitratation Cases under the NRPC Act. The first one was to start the Medfly, actually called the Spirit of California. The second, to reroute the Starlight to the SP East Valley Line via Roseville and Sacramento. This Chronicle will deal with the Medflyer.

The SP's real issues with the Medflyer were on the LA Division and specifically with the line segment between Yuma Jct and Gemco. We did not want a passenger train with the Amtrak priorities to interfere with auto parts trains for Gemco. The later the auto parts, the hotter they were, and the more the potential conflict. (A really big deal)

We also had a minor issue on the Western Division, since a train in the Medflyer Slot in either direction, particularly on the Martinez Subdivision would constrain lots of local operations, and also restrict the departures of late trains from Oakland, eastbound on the Cal P. (Actually not a really big deal)

Both D M Mohan, the Superintendent of the LA Division and MDO (me) The Superintendent of the Western Division, were present at the NARP arbitration hearings which were held in New York City.

Quick summary, we put on a good case and we got creamed.

The end result was an order from the National Arbitration Pannel starting the Medfly. All we got as mitigation was a trainorder office at the west end of Santa Margarita. We had wanted double track between Burbank JCT and Gemco. (We got this ten plus years later as part of the Metrolink negotiations)

I later learned that Jim Larson of Amtrak never took a case to arbitration, that he did not have better than 90% chance of winning. He would threaten arbitration, frequently, based on his track record of winning cases. However, if you were gutsy enough to push back and he didn't think he had this very high probablity of prevailing, he would not persue arbitration in the end. Once I had figured this out, the playing field got level. JLL and Amtrak never brought an arbitration case against the SP, after I became the SP's NRPC Operating Officer, in july of 198. They had brought at least three cases, before that.

JLL liked to quote NRPC case decisions to the various Freight Railroad NRPC officers, Frequently these cases did not really apply. Larson was used to NRPC Officers taking his word for these case outcomes and their application, without doing the research. Too bad, Jim. I did the research.

JLL was never able to bluff me after 1983. As a result, SP held it's own against Amtrak "asaults" after 1983. We only agreed if we wanted to agree, no more "black mail" by Amtrak under JLL.

Larson"s problem, (and my albatross), was that after 1983, I stayed involved with Amtrak affairs all the way up to 9/12/1996 at SP and then at UP until I retired in 2001, I was even deeply involved for the two following years as a UP consultant. Mail and express, you will remember.

mdo



Edited 15 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/14 12:22 by mdo.

Do you have the rest of the Timetable? Very interesting story. Thanks for sharing

Yes. What do you want to see?? There are 72 pages plus the four sides of the cover.

You mean that the SP didn't put in the TO at Margarita because they wanted to move freight? Finally the truth comes out. When they cut off 2nd & 3rd trick at Paso, it really threw a wrench in the works for many years until Margarita opened.

Keep em coming Mike. You are filling a lot of voids for old SP people.

Nudge

Well, welcome back Mike

My dad was a supporter of the Oxnard commuter train and rode it on the first day of operation. He was so excited that he took me down with him the weekend before to watch the parking lots and platforms being built. Amazing to see it happen so quick. During its short life, he rode it between Moorpark and Van Nuys where he was employed by ITT as an electrical engineer. That is the building with the Radar antennas you see from the track where it passes under the 405 Freeway.

As a rider he expressed that the service failed because SP made it fail. The Simi Valley station was built on a hand thrown siding that slowed the train down. He also said the conductors never collected a fare and it was his belief they under counted the ridership to make it look like nobody was riding it.

Todd Clark
Canyon Country, CA
Trainorders.com

Hey Todd. Was this around the same time. When Amtrak was running the Santa Barbaran? Which had a couple of Amfleet and a Pooch on it. I think NscaleMike has a Picture of this Train.

Good story, Mike. Not being a Californian--though with the help of some California friends, I'm trying to understand it better, I wonder why the "Spirit of California" failed? Is part or all of it now running under the guise of a different Amtrak service brand (I know that I'm REALLY showing my ignorance here, but, am operating under the old proviso that the only "stupid question is the question never asked"--LOL!!!).

I am as big a passenger rail supporter as you'll find--whether intercity LD, regionals, commutes, or what have you. However, I find it hard to fathom that the SP was forced to subsidize commute operations as long as it was. On the one hand, I think that commute operations are a growth industry, if you will, and quite essential in large cities with a vast sprawl of outlying suburbs. But--there is even less chance of recovering costs in commute service than in intercity--I THINK. Regardless, I do not think that any private railroad should have to subsidize commutes, nor, in spite of my STRONG support for commute service, do I feel that any private railroad should in ANY WAY have to PAY out of pocket expenses for said commute service--not even infrastructure and/or capacity improvements--ESPECIALLY those two factors. Commute service is a "public service," and, should be PAID FOR as such--by the PUBLIC.

One thing that seems to have changed between now, and the W. Graham Claytor Era at Amtrak (let's just say from the mid-1980s to the early 1990s), there was a period when many host carriers found that it was to their great advantage to cooperate with Amtrak. With the incentive payments, Amtrak, during that period, was often referred to as "an important CUSTOMER" by more than one Class 1. This seems to have changed. WHY?!? My gut feeling, based on purely subjective impressions, is that perhaps the incentive structure has "not kept pace with the cost of living," so to speak? Am I in the ballpark on that one? Or to simplify: have the incentives been lowered, or, are they still paying the incentives in 1980s dollars, naturally leaving the host carriers in the position of no longer viewing Amtrak as a "valued customer"?

IF this is the case--I know that "money is tight"--blah blah blah--it seems that Alex Kummant could try to work to get these incentive payments back in line with the current economic realities? I think that we might get more objective responses on this here than from some of the blowhards and fanatics on the Passenger Board--people who display all sorts of "out in left field" positions of the political spectrum (rabidly anti-Amtrak folks who feel that the system should be shut down--that will come right out and say with bluntness that it's perfectly OK to subsidize airport construction and/or expansions--others who support Amtrak and commute operations but who feel that the UPRR, BNSF, and other host carriers "owe it to the public" to make the infrastructure improvements that are needed for new services, and, other positions that show a lack of maturity, "sober level-headedness," and plain old COMMON SENSE). I think that any railroad should make the infrastructure improvements needed to keep it's OWN BUSINESS fluid--that's a given--and I think that the UPRR is trying, after the Ike Evans debacle (there, I said it--it was a BIG, disastrous debacle). It will take Jim Young 5 years just to undo the damage that man did to the UP "Franchise," then, another 5 years to "move forward." I hope that Mr. Young can stay in office long enough to do this.

But the most important--and seemingly LEAST discussed aspect of freight/passenger ops--is the incentive payment system that once seemed to work so well. It is hardly a topic of discussion any longer, and you do not read much about railroads "going that extra mile" for the incentive payments as you once did, which leads me to believe that perhaps the incentive payment structure isn't worth as much, now, as it was toward the end of the 20th Century. Am I getting warm?

mdo Wrote:
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> I stayed involved with Amtrak affairs
> all the way up to 9/12/2006 at SP

Wow! I'm impressed! You da man.

Right, unfortunately. (You do know what an Albatros refers to, don't you)

Red Wrote:
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> But the most important--and seemingly LEAST
> discussed aspect of freight/passenger ops--is the
> incentive payment system that once seemed to work
> so well. It is hardly a topic of discussion any
> longer, and you do not read much about railroads
> "going that extra mile" for the incentive payments
> as you once did, which leads me to believe that
> perhaps the incentive payment structure isn't
> worth as much, now, as it was toward the end of
> the 20th Century. Am I getting warm?

Oh boy,

Do I have a few things to say to respond to this.

Red, I once wrote a fifty page paper about the inequities of Amtrak's incentive system as far as the freight railroads are concerned.
I also spent three years at the UP trying to negotiate a new contract between UP and Amtrak with a half way balanced and fair incentive system. I failed.

In the end, the UP agreed to take a major reduction in potential incentive earnings to reduce the potential penalties.
(Under Amtraks "incentive system" freight railroads only earn incentives when all Amtrak trains operated over that railroad are at or above eighty percent on time. On the other hand, that freight railroad can be penalized three and a half times the potential incentive earnings, and Amtrak can take back up to 12 months past incentive earnings.)

I will cover this subject in future MDCs

mdo

Incentives would be an interesting point. Also relevent to the many long distance passenger train discussions.
Maybe there's a story in the manner in which SP operated Donner Pass with so much track and so few freight trains. There is an urban legend that the Amtrak on-time performance incentives paid for the upkeep.

I don't know who came with the nickname of "Medflyer", or "Medfly", as I knew it referred to, but the train went on when much of California was invested with the Mediterranean Fruit Fly. The pest was eating much of the state's fruit crop and residents were subjected to spraying from helicopters at night to try to eliminate the thing. I guess someone thought it an appropriate nickname for the train.

I worked the train a number of times and patronage was fair, but I always thought it would have done much better as a day train to pick up the slack for the often sold out Starlight. I doubt if it would have mattered to the anti rail Deukmejian.

I used to fire the medfly from LA to SLO with Ed Platz and learned to run passenger when SP supplied the crews before Amtrak took over. We returned the next day on the Starlight to LA. It was a great job because you made a round trip in about 24 HRS including layover in Slotown then had about 48 off at home. Dick Hadley was the brakeman and always brought us soup and a cold drink at Santa Barb. Maybe Johnny Gard was the big C on it but not sure. Good times with great people. Paid well too. Sure miss the "friendly" way ..................

mdo Wrote:
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> I will cover this subject in future MDCs

I'm really looking forward to these, and hope they get crossposted to the 'current' forums as well. I think, with the exception of the various attempts at re-regulation, that the Amtrak compensation to the host railroads is the most significant fundamental structural problem in the railroad industry today.

Here is the MDC where I introduced JLL for easy referance:
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,956729,957370#msg-957370

mdo

Here are two more schedule pages from Western Division Timetable #19

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webmaster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> As a rider he expressed that the service failed
> because SP made it fail. The Simi Valley station
> was built on a hand thrown siding that slowed the
> train down. He also said the conductors never
> collected a fare and it was his belief they under
> counted the ridership to make it look like nobody
> was riding it.


There is no question that the SP did not want the Oxnard commute service in the early 1980s. These trains were a major imposition on the SP. They created severe disruption to the then current operating pattern around Gemco. The trains only were started after Cal Trans got a court injunction. All of the station locations were chosen by Cal Trans. The platforms were installed over a weekend by Cal Trans employees. SP was forced to dead head equipment from the Penninsula Commute Pool to LA to start up the service.

The State did not have a contract with the SP for this service as they did for the SF/SJ service. Without a contract, SP filed a Tarriff for the Oxnard Service. That tarriff covered everything but the kitchen sink. The state cried foul and never did pay SP for everything in the tarriff. Over a year after the train was pulled off SP and Cal Trans reached a settlement and at least SP got some of their money.

Other than the station platforms, not one cent was spent on adequate track arrangements to support this service by the State, the Counties and certainly not by the SP.

mdo

I caught the Med-Fly SLO to LA a few times as a hoghead. It was okay going down but we had to layover and come back on a freight. It was a screwed job for the Coast engine crews.

Nudge