Railroaders' Nostalgia > Another Big Fat Lap

One morning in 1978 I came to work as the SP's Assistant Trainmaster at Surf.  I was met at the door by Frankie Vasquez the daylight Train Order Operator who had a fist full of orders in his hand, and made the comment "I thought I knew Train Orders!"  I told him I thought he did too, so tell me what is going on.

Just after midnight the SMV, known as the Smokey arrived at Surf to pick up the nightly 30 loads of diatomaceous earth out of JM and Grefco.  The conductor didn't have far to walk to get to the office to pick up his train list and the additional orders.

The territory was single track ABS Train Orders.  Several years before, the SP abolished all the Westbound Second Class schedules, and ran everything Westbound as an extra.  The Eastbounds were #s 830, 832, 834, and 836.

A Westbound left Burbank Junction 150 miles East of Surf, and the dispatcher set up protection and a meet.  The Westbound got delayed somewhere so the dispatcher decided to move the meet about 50 miles East.  Then the Eastbound, #832 got delayed, so the dispatcher decided to move the meet back where he had it set up to start with.

#832 had orders 1 and 2 before he got to Surf, and the Operator handed the conductor, CH "Dad" Tangen (an old timer and a good conductor) order #3 while his crew was making their pickup.  Honda is the 1st siding East of Surf, and Santa Barbara, the next open Train Order office, is 70 miles East.

Order #1 read:  Extra 8814 West has right over #832 Burbank Jct to Honda.
Order #2 read:  Extra 8814 West has right over #832 Burbank Jct to Capitan instead of Honda.
Order #3 read:  Order #2 is annulled.

Dad Tangen wouldn't go, and a discussion ensued between him, the Operator who had more clerical experience than Train Orders, and the dispatcher who was a member of "Nighswonger's Nursery" (see TAW's comment on seniority in the LA Disprs office.)   After a long discussion, Dad finally agreed to leave under protest, saying "you're the dispatcher, if it was up to me, I still wouldn't go!"

OK, who was right, or who was wrong?  Should he have gone, or what should have happened?

I'll answer tomorrow...
No need for the asbestos suit Charlie, you are spot on!  Likewise TAW and WAF.
​The answer is that on the SP at least, an order is in effect until it is fulfilled, superseded, anulled, or becomes void.  When the Disp issued Order #2, it superseded Order #1, so it was effectively "GONE."  At that point, Extra 8814 West would have had to head in at Capitan and wait for #832.  When the disp issued Order #3, it took the Extra's 'right' away, and all he could do was go as far as the timetable would let him against 832, then head in and wait.​  If the extra was anywhere West of #832's time when Order #3 was issued, they were lapped!  ​ What the Dispr was trying to do was move the meet back to Honda, but he didn't realize that he had superseded Order #1 with Order #2 and couldn't use it any more. He also didn't realize that he had taken the Extra's  authority against #832 away completely when he issued #3.  I don't know where they met...

The next morning, I didn't want to make a formal complaint, so I called a SHARP​ dispr, who happened to be the day Coast man, and asked him to call me on an outside line that wasn't recorded.
Mike took a look at the book, and his comment wasn't printable here, then he wanted to know if anything else went on.  I told him I didn't think so, and I would be good if he explained it to the midnight guy whose name was also Mike the next morning when he signed the turnover.  Midnight Mike had been a clerk in LA for several years before he went dispatching.  Shortly after, he left the SP and became a minister.
G



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/15 15:06 by ExSPCondr.

OK, here goes. Keep in mind this is from a CTC hogger.

Order #2 superseded order #1 therefore Rule 220 governs and order #1 is no longer in effect.
Order #1 is a form S-C and must not be changed more than once by a form P train order, which order #2 is, and does.
The DS correctly annulled order #2.
At this point Train 832 has schedule authority to proceed beyond Surf and it would be the responsibility of the extra west
to comply with Rule 86 and clear the main track before the leaving time of the opposing superior train.

Climbing into my asbestos suit now.

Charlie

cewherry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OK, here goes. Keep in mind this is from a CTC
> hogger.
>
> Order #2 superseded order #1 therefore Rule 220
> governs and order #1 is no longer in effect.
> Order #1 is a form S-C and must not be changed
> more than once by a form P train order, which
> order #2 is, and does.
> The DS correctly annulled order #2.
> At this point Train 832 has schedule authority to
> proceed beyond Surf and it would be the
> responsibility of the extra west
> to comply with Rule 86 and clear the main track
> before the leaving time of the opposing superior
> train.
>
> Climbing into my asbestos suit now.


No need. You're spot on.

TAW

I agree before I read the other responses. Go since 832 has TT authority. Hope they can fit at the siding. Poor Extra. Will be a long night 

This is the kind of situation where DTC would have worked well or you could get Santa Barb and Surf to try and raise this west man on the radio and issue a new order, possibliby not with the bad reception between Surf and SB

 



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/15 09:53 by WAF.

 No asbestos suit needed, Charlie. You are "spot on" as Tom said.

George,
The east man could depart Surf and go over to Honda. The way the order reads the Extra west lost his rights at the east switch at Honda and would head in. The smokie had head rights up to the fouling point on the main to the east end of Honda. The right over was only changed once and then annuled.

There is some information missing though. What was # 832 cleared as at  BI and what orders did he have.  I gather #832 wasn't carring signals and was straight up. What orders did he get at Guadalupe. 


Nudge



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/15 11:14 by spnudge.

spnudge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> George,
> The east man could depart Surf and go over to
> Honda. The way the order reads the Extra west lost
> his rights at the east switch at Honda and would
> head in. The smokie had head rights up to the
> fouling point on the main to the east end of
> Honda. The right over was only changed once and
> then annuled.
>
> There is some information missing though. What was
> # 832 cleared as at  BI and what orders did he
> have.  I gather #832 wasn't carring signals and
> was straight up. What orders did he get at
> Guadalupe. 
>
>
> Nudge

Lots left out of the picture



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/15 13:08 by WAF.

So 1 was voided. Then 2 was voided so he had no orders to allow him on the mainline , is that how to read that ?

Posted from Android

I probably should have put the answer down here, instead of an edit above, so here's a quickie.
Order #2 superseded Order #1, so it is gone.
​Order #3 annulled Order #2, so #832  can go East without regard to the Extra.  #832's Conductor was rightfully concerned about what the Extra was going to do.
​I left Virlon out of the top reply, he is right too, and WAF is really right where he said "poor Extra!"
​The Extra could have gone to Capitan against #832 on Order #2, but Order #3 took ALL of his authority away.  The only thing he could have done was go as far West as his timetable authority would have allowed, and head in and WAIT.  If he was anywhere West of #832's schedule time when order #3 was issued, the trains were lapped!
G   

WAF Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> This is the kind of situation where DTC would have
> worked well or you could get Santa Barb and Surf
> to try and raise this west man on the radio and
> issue a new order, possibliby not with the bad
> reception between Surf and SB

DTC is to train order operation as a chain saw is to cabinet making.

Both cut wood.

TAW

TAW,
This wasn't a "lap order". It was just as I described or should have been. As you said, there are a lot of answers missing.  A lap order is a whole different kettle of fish.

I was on a 2nd class going to LA, the Smokie. There was a  train out there that had right over us and wait at.......   Well we ran out of time and had to head in at Concepcion.
There we sat and the train we were waiting for was still at West Santa Barbara.. Only trouble was there was another section behind us and he ran out of railroad at Sudden. The west man could not leave SB until he showed up. Well, we were able to reach the Oxnard operator and tell him the RR was sewed up because of a lap order. The dispatcher came back and refused to give us an order over the radio. Well finally someone finally woke up  at 610 South Main in LA.  After an hour or so, here comes another east man that had delivery orders for us.. It was a flat meet for us at West Santa Barb for the west man.It also gave the guy behind us the same order.

Well, we died at SB. When I got in to LA, I called the Coast Dispatcher. I asked who the dummy was that sewed up the RR. Well, the dispatcher said, "Sorry, it was my wife working 3rd trick."

I think everyone here knows who I was talking about.

Fun and games on the Coast but I loved working with TOs. It kept you thinking.


Nudge

Great analogy!
 

TAW Great analogy!
 

Since I worked this territory with TOA (train order authority)..  If I were on 832 I would go on the TTS .. which was good for 12 hours and not worry about the Extra West..  he could of died on the law or terminated farther down the line. 

   For another time will discuss the story that I faced with a trainorder that stated " Extra 9066  East has right over Extra 9389 West  Mojave to Palmdale.. 

spnudge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TAW,
> This wasn't a "lap order".

Wasn't me.


>It was just as I
> described or should have been. As you said, there
> are a lot of answers missing.


Still not me.

> A lap order is a
> whole different kettle of fish.
>


> Fun and games on the Coast but I loved working
> with TOs. It kept you thinking.

...which was the problem a lot of latter-day management had with train order operation.

TAW

NSDTK Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So 1 was voided. Then 2 was voided so he had no
> orders to allow him on the mainline , is that how
> to read that ?
>
>Dave:
After reading through these posts I notice no one had answered your specific question although you have probably figured
it out by now.

Train order #1 was superseded by order #2 with the insertion of the words "instead of" in the body of the order...."Capitan instead of Honda"....
Espee's rule 220 stipulated, in part: "Train orders once in effect continue so until fulfilled, superseded (emphasis mine), annulled
                                               or become void."  That is why order #1 cannot be considered by the crew of No. 832, the order no longer exists.
Train order #2 was annulled by train order #3. Again rule 220 governs and that is why order #2 cannot be considered by No. 832. Again, the order no longer exists.

Given this information only, there is no reason why No. 832 should not proceed eastward on its timetable schedule authority expecting any
inferior movements to be complying with rule 86 which says, again in part: "Within block system limits.....a train must be clear of main track
and insulated joints: (a) before the leaving time of an opposing superior train."......
   
With only these facts in hand, and I agree with Wes and Nudge, we don't have a complete record of what other train orders were held by the two
trains involved. Perhaps 'Dad' Tangen had other orders that mentioned the Extra 8814 West and with an abundance of caution was concerned
about proceeding. I worked with 'Dad' on several occasions between Los Angeles and West Colton and knew him to be a cautious, rules savvy 'rail'.
He could also be imposing, given his easily 6' 4" height and girth to match! Great guy to pull.

Charlie


 

Modern spelling, "superseded".

When I went to school and in my old rulebook, it was "superceded". I miss old English.

Best regards,

Rob L.

TAW,

Sorry, it was supposed to be WAF.

Nudge

rob_l Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Modern spelling, "superseded".
>
> When I went to school and in my old rulebook, it
> was "superceded". I miss old English.
>

Wow! You must be really, really old.  LOL!!

My rule book collection is by no means extensive or exclusive to those of the Southern Pacific; going back only to 1943. I did a quick check
of the spelling of the word in question and in every Southern Pacific Rules and Regulations of the Transportation Department book
that I have, 1976, 1969, 1960, 1951 and 1943, that word in rule 220 is spelled with an 's' . I just don't know what to say.  : )

Charlie
 

Railbaron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wait a minute – something isn’t making sense
> or I’m just very dense. 
>
> Train 832 is an EASTWARD train and his authority
> to operate is conveyed by timetable schedule.
> Train EXTRA 8814 is a WESTWARD train. The extra in
> caps is to accentuate the fact that 8814 is an
> INFERIOR train by class, which is why the “right
> over” orders were put out. So far I think
> we’re on the same page.  

Actually the extra is inferior not by class but it is inferior by Rule 73: "Extra trains are inferior to regular trains."
>
> Here’s the massive confusion. ExSPCondr said,
> “Just after midnight the SMV, known as the
> Smokey arrived at Surf to pick up…”

No. 832 is the SMV.

Then he  said, “… the Operator handed the conductor, CH
> "Dad" Tangen (an old timer and a good conductor)
> order #3 while his crew was making their
> pickup.” Since you said he was “handed”
> these orders to the conductor while they were
> making their pick-up that obviously means they had
> arrived Surf – very important detail.  

Again No 832 was working at Surf not Extra 8814 West
>
> Here’s the problem; Extra 8814 was already PAST
> Capitan (MP 346.5) and already PAST Honda (MP
> 304.6) and was doing work at Surf (MP 299.4), at
> least according to your post. The only way he
> could have gotten to Surf was if he could have
> made it ahead of #832’s schedule. And if that
> was the case that means the whole issue of Orders
> 1, 2, and 3 is moot because the orders have been
> fulfilled and all #832 needs to do is visually
> check the Extra 8814 West was at Surf or get the
> order annulling the other orders. 
>
> Of course for the Extra 8814 West to advance from
> Surf he may have needed help but Orders 1, 2, and
> 3 are not even part of the picture.
>
> Ok, if I’m as dense as a block of concrete
> please enlighten me but something is seriously
> wrong with this entire scenario.